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Gud, ikke blot det godes skaber
Fra : Alex


Dato : 25-01-05 18:11

Den følgende artikel er skrevet af en kalvinist, og efter min
opfattelse helt utrolig god. Desværre skal man være god til engelsk
for at forstå den. Sagen er "theodice" problemet, som her bliver
"løst" kompromisløst. Jeg er kompromisløs monoteist og tror Gud er
det ondes skaber, hvilket Bibelen også bakker op. Det eneste der står
tilbage som problem er det svære i at forholde sig til, at Gud har
skabt alt den grusomhed, der findes. Ja det er tungt stof, men måske
vil nogen her finde artiklen interessant.


Supralapsarianism and Its Practical Implications


Supralapsarianism:

Some have dismissed supralapsarianism as mere logic. Some believe it
ascribes sinfulness to God. Typically, these are the same arguments
used by Arminians against the doctrine of predestination. Sadly, there
are far too many who profess predestination yet are not supralapsarian.
Well-known theologian, R.C. Sproul has adopted the infralapsarian
position. He struggles to present his case in his book, Chosen By God.
Because of the stature of Sproul many are turning to the Arminian
position of infralapsarianism. Their justification is that they believe
supralapsarianism makes God evil.

First, I would like to present a totally Biblical argument for the
supralapsarian position. Second, I will desperately try to not use any
extra-biblical logic since this has aroused so many infralapsarians.
However, I will confess that to profess that God is omniscient and
omnipotent and yet deny the supralapsarian position is philosophically
illogical and impossible. Nevertheless, to satisfy those such as myself
who have a tendency to refuse all logic against Scripture (which is
actually quite a nice thing to do), I will simply expound the
Scriptures. For those of you who want the philosophically logical and
inevitable defense of supralapsarianism, just let me know.

The first and foremost part of my proposition is that God is
intrinsically holy. This holiness cannot be changed nor does it have an
end or a beginning. The second part of my proposition is that God, in
His holiness, has an immutable decree for all events in time and
outside of time. This decree is as immutable and eternal as His
holiness. This decree providentially permeates, and by God's infinite
power is the causal factor of, every facet of all events in time and
outside of time.

The third but less significant part of my proposition is that the
knowledge of the supralapsarian position is an extremely important part
of the Christian life and the worship of God. Within this part of the
proposition we should note that we are strongly admonished through
examples and commands in Scripture to praise God for the good and the
bad that He brings. Ultimately this is because they all work together
for good to them that love God and are the called according to His
purpose. Therefore, I assert that the active, ineffable power of God
over good and evil, righteousness and sin, to fulfill His decree, is to
be praised by the Christian. God's power is not merely an attribute.

The power of God is God:
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express
image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,
when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of
the Majesty on high;
Exodus 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy
right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
Numbers 14:17-18 And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my LORD be
great, according as thou hast spoken, saying, {18} The LORD is
longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and
transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the
iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth
generation.
2 Samuel 22:33 God is my strength and power: And he maketh my way
perfect.
This power of God is Jesus Christ:
1 Corinthians 1:23-24 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a
stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; {24} But unto them
which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and
the wisdom of God.

The Christian life is lacking when the power of God is only praised for
good. In everything we are to give thanks. This includes good, evil,
righteousness, and sin. This concept is foreign to many because the
nature of man gravitates toward likening God to man:

Psalms 50:21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou
thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will
reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.
Certainly man at His best state is altogether vanity (Ps. 39:5). Man
throughout history has attempted to fashion a god after his own mind.
This is primarily because a god of his own device will conform to that
which he naturally adores-self. With such a marred past, we must
consider the fact that we have carried many carnal views into our
Christianity. As long as the Lord wills, there will always be baggage
we need to discard.

Though many do not know the term, supralapsarianism is the most hated
doctrine of God. This is precisely why the unbeliever is so vehemently
opposed to it and many believers are reluctant to embrace this
wonderful truth.

Infralapsarianism can be technically defined as God decreeing salvation
because of the fall. Supralapsarianism is defined as God decreeing both
the fall and salvation based upon no condition whatsoever. In essence
infralapsarianism is here seen to closely parallel the Arminian
doctrine of conditional election. Infralapsarianism must end with that
conclusion. For if God decreed salvation because of the fall, for God
to be consistent in His decree He must have decreed election because of
the activity of the one who had fallen. This is not logic supporting
supralapsarianism; rather this is the logic of infralapsarianism. There
are many more logical conclusions to which infralapsarianism leads,
however, we will examine the Biblical position of supralapsarianism.

It must be noted that there are differing views of those who claim to
hold the supralapsarian position. The "orthodox" view would say that
God did indeed decree salvation and the fall based upon no foreseen
condition. However, the vast majority of those who hold the
supralapsarian position would be very reluctant to say that God is the
author of evil or sin. Some would go so far as to say that God is the
author of evil yet not the cause of sin. The sound of the phrase,
"cause of sin" is particularly disturbing when we consider the holiness
of God. But we must ask the question: Do we believe God is the Creator
of all things?

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour
and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they
are and were created.

Do we really include all things as we consider this passage and sing so
many songs that use this verse? Some try to say that sin is not a
thing. What is sin if it is not a thing? To identify something as a
thing does not mean it has to be material. The Bible speaks of
immaterial things:

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven,
and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones,
or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by
him, and for him:

Jesus Christ created all things visible and invisible. Sin is
invisible. Sin is used as both a verb and a noun in the Bible. Nothing
can be excluded from the seemingly infinite parameter of God's
creation. The atheist affirms that the universe suddenly appeared or
evolved out of nothing. We say that this is futile and illogical. Yet
these very atheists attack the man-centered presentation of God as
all-knowing, all-powerful, yet not the author and cause of all things.
This attack is justified primarily because the atheist sees the extreme
irrationality of a God who is such. Though we will not consider it
here, it is very profitable to thoroughly consider the profundity of
the omniscience and omnipotence of God. Sadly, many secular courses in
logic present a more Biblical view of God than most professing
Christians. Certainly Arminianism has entirely deviated from the God of
Scripture.

Though this may seem extreme, infralapsarianism leads to the same
deviation when taken to its logical conclusion. I fully confess that
just about every doctrine we hold could lead to deviation from
Scripture if we scrutinized every possible result from any given
doctrine. However, because this involves such enormous and clear
attributes of God, and because it involves such obvious reproach
against Jesus Christ we must review our presuppositions and make sure
they are in conformity with Scripture. In doing so we will not only
have a far greater appreciation for the absolute sovereignty of God
over righteousness and sin; we will also present God as He is to the
fallen world and to professing Christians: namely, a God who is
actively (not permissively) involved with each event transpiring in
time and eternity from the salvation of the soul to the sparrow that
falls to the ground, from a corrupt murderer of millions of Russian
peasants to those who crucified the Lord of glory.

In this examination I will make brief comments concerning the following
passages:

Isaiah 46:9-11 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and
there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, {10} Declaring
the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are
not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my
pleasure: {11} Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that
executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will
also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God has declared the end from the beginning. Nothing was left undone.
Nothing was decreed after an event. To say otherwise would be to deny
the omniscience of God. Not only did God declare the end from the
beginning, He also promised to bring it to pass and to do it. "Do it"
is not an act of permission but commission.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the
wicked for the day of evil.

God created all things, sin and righteousness for Himself. This is the
purpose of all creation: to bring glory to God. God created the wicked
to be damned.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before
of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of
our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our
Lord Jesus Christ.

This passage clearly teaches they were ordained for condemnation. God
planned or decreed that certain men would be damned for eternity.

Romans 9:22-23 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his
power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath
fitted to destruction: {23} And that he might make known the riches of
his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto
glory,

There are some who have correctly analyzed the use of the passive voice
for the word "fitted" and the active voice for the word "prepared." A
faulty analysis of the "passive" voice is made when associating the
"passiveness" with God. The truth that the phrase is conveying is
diametrically opposed to that imagination. The passive voice is used to
describe the passiveness of the vessel of destruction. That is, the
vessel of destruction is passively having to receive the decree and
hardening of God upon their hearts. Otherwise, vv. 18,19 would not make
any sense in the context:

Romans 9:18-19 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and
whom he will he hardeneth. {19} Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he
yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

The whole context deals with the discussion of the will of God to
harden some and save others. If it were some sort of discourse
concerning some imaginary passive attribute of God then the questions
of the earthly opponent would be completely out of place. The whole
reason the earthly opponent responds with hatred toward God is that
they are confronted with the inevitable reality that an omnipotent,
omniscient God has just declared that He hardens whom He wills.
"Hardeneth" is a present tense verb in the active voice. Literally the
passage reads, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and
whom he will he is continually hardening." There is so much force
behind this statement for the supralapsarian position that only the
angriest mentality would find ways to ignore the clear implication of
the verse.

Incidentally, the command to Pharaoh was, "Let my people go." Sin is
disobedience to God. To disobey God's command would be sin. For Pharaoh
to not hearken to the command of God to let the children of Israel go
would be to sin and rebel against God. There is no contention here
among all positions. The issue is clarified in God's explicit statement
to Moses:

Exodus 4:21-23 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return
into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I
have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not
let the people go. {22} And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the
LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: {23} And I say unto thee,
Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go,
behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

There is no mistaking the fact that God caused Pharaoh to sin. But
before we ascribe evil to God, we must ask two essential questions:
Does God have the right and does God have a purpose? No true Christian
would deny the fact that God has a right to do whatever He pleases.
This is certainly Scriptural:

Psalms 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he
hath pleased.
Psalms 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in
earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as
nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and
among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say
unto him, What doest thou?

The problem is that far too many professing Christians are not even
saying, "What doest thou?" They are simply saying, "Thou wouldst not do
it!" Yet, "He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and
among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand..."Or as
the opponent exclaims, "...Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath
resisted his will?" Romans 9:19. God's purpose is that He would be
glorified and His power would be made known.

The response of the atheist to the imagined passive side of God is,
"God could not be passive if He is omniscient and omnipresent." If we
presented the truth of God's active sovereignty over good and evil, the
atheist's reply would be much more similar to that of the opponent in
Romans. "How can He find fault if He is the one hardening and His will
cannot be resisted?" Paul gives the most hated reply:

Romans 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me
thus? {21} Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to
make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

We could close the case here, but there are far too many Scriptural
jewels we would overlook in doing so.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and
create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Some try to make the distinction between moral evil and natural
calamity in their analysis of this verse. However, this view simply
will not harmonize with the rest of Scripture for two reasons: First,
the word for evil is the identical Hebrew word used in these passages:

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree
that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also
in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the
earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only
evil continually.

These passages elucidate the fact that good and evil are contrasted.
Certainly moral evil is that to which the writer of Genesis is
referring. This in and of itself, however, does not prove our point.
But Lamentations certainly does:

Lamentations 3:37-38 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when
the Lord commandeth it not? {38} Out of the mouth of the most High
proceedeth not evil and good?

God's sovereignty over the will of man is seen in vs. 37. To clarify
the sense of the verse, the writer is saying, "Who is the one that says
'It shall come to pass,' when the Lord has not ordained it to come to
pass?" In other words, regardless of man's counsel, only God's counsel
stands:

Psalms 33:10-11 The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought:
he maketh the devices of the people of none effect. {11} The counsel of
the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all
generations.

Lamentations 3:38 is especially apparent:

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil
and good?

Even Job recognized this after Satan had taken his property, his
children and had given him boils:

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish
women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and
shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Certainly Satan's acts are all morally evil. Job said this came from
the hand of the Lord. The moral evil Satan committed was from the hand
of the Lord. This idea is very pronounced in a comparison of Samuel and
Chronicles:

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against
Israel, and He moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and
Judah.
1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David
to number Israel. cf. Job 1,2

Compare the two clauses:

"Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel"
"...the LORD was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against
them to say, Go, number Israel"

The question is not who did it, but rather, who controls whom. Satan
was a piece of wicked clay that God created to do whatever He wanted:

Job 26:6-14 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
{7} He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the
earth upon nothing. {8} He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds;
and the cloud is not rent under them. {9} He holdeth back the face of
his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it. {10} He hath compassed the
waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end. {11} The
pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof. {12} He
divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth
through the proud. {13} By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens;
his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. {14} Lo, these are parts of
his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of
his power who can understand?

Notice that God formed the crooked serpent.

Ecclesiastes 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that
straight, which he hath made crooked?

>From what we have studied so far, it is clear that God creates men
wicked for the purpose of condemning them. The reasons are as follows:
First, so that God would show His power and that His name would be
declared in all the earth. The second reason is found in Romans 9, that
ever-so-faithful passage that will always convince me of the
supralapsarian position so long as it is in the Bible:

Romans 9:22-23 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his
power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath
fitted to destruction: {23} And that he might make known the riches of
his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto
glory,

God certainly could have ordained each and every one of us to the lake
of fire. God certainly could have hardened us. God confronts us with
this truth that He ordains some for condemnation and hardens them to
that end so that those who were ordained for glory as vessels of mercy
would praise Him. Instead of praising God for this awesome truth, far
too many are saying, "That makes God unjust; That's unfair; That's not
the God of the Bible; My God would never do that; That would mean God
is evil," and the list goes on and on. They forsake God's word because
they are thinking that God is altogether like them.

We will now examine some of more detailed events which God sovereignly
causes.

Job 12:6-10 The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke
God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly. {7} But ask
now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air,
and they shall tell thee: {8} Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach
thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. {9} Who
knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
{10} In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of
all mankind.

Verse 9 says, "Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD
hath wrought this?" In all honesty the infralapsarian would be forced
to answer that they do not know that the hand of the Lord hath wrought
these things. Particularly we see that the hand of the Lord "bringeth
abundantly into the hands of robbers." God's hand (denoting active
sovereignty) causes the tabernacle of robbers to prosper. Is robbing a
sin? God causes their sin and their sinning to prosper. But why?

Psalms 92:5-7 O LORD, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are
very deep. {6} A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool
understand this. {7} When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all
the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed
for ever:

God simply wants to destroy them forever, which is exactly why He is
causing them to prosper. The Potter sovereignly and actively controls
the clay for His own purposes.

This same idea is conveyed with authority in the book of Joshua:

Joshua 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they
should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them
utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy
them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

God actively hardened the Gentile enemies of God's chosen nation of
Israel to come against Israel in battle so that He would destroy them
utterly. Why, for the Gentiles were certainly no more wicked than the
Jews?! It was so that God would keep His covenant with Israel to bring
them completely into the land. God did not want these Gentiles to have
any favor. God wanted to destroy them therefore He hardened them.

A question that we might ask concerning one of man's chief rebellions
against God is, Is it a sin to hate God's people? Certainly the Bible
teaches hatred is murder. No doubt, hating God's people is hating Jesus
Christ, for He said, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of the
my brethren, ye have done it unto Me. To hate God's people is to hate
God. One of the strongest statements concerning God actively causing
sin is found in Psalms:

Psalm 105:25 He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtly
with his servants.

God is here said to have turned (actively) the Gentiles hearts to hate
His people. Some may say that this refers to non-elect Israel. The
passage says God turned their hearts..."to deal subtly with His
servants." God here actively caused these Gentiles to hate His people
and make them deal subtly with His servants. Some will try to play word
games by saying turn does not really mean turn etc. This is quite
simply twisting Scripture.

Consider this passage:

Proverbs 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless
the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Some might say that this passage is clearly "vindicating" God from any
exercise of His active power over the actual thoughts of man. However,
the rest of Scripture shows the true meaning of this verse:

Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of
the tongue, is from the LORD.
Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then
understand his own way?
Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it
is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

God is said to prepare the heart in man, to give the answer of the
tongue, and to cause man's goings and ways. Isn't it fascinating that
the question is raised in response to the statement that man's goings
are of the Lord, "How can a man then understand his own way?" This
explains why infralapsarians are so puzzled. Theologically they do not
even believe that all of man's goings are of the Lord, therefore they
are not even to the point of asking how can a man then understand his
own way? Instead the pride exposed in infralapsarianism is this: They
believe man can understand his own way because ultimately,
infralapsarian theology must take God out of the picture. Therefore
their theology must ascribe greatness to man, though the infralapsarian
would utterly reject this accusation.

In Isaiah chapter 10 God identifies the King of Assyria thus:

Isaiah 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their
hand is mine indignation.

The Psalmist describes the wicked similarly:

Psalms 17:13-14 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver
my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword: {14} From men which are
thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in
this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are
full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes.

In both passages the wicked are described as being either instruments
in the hand of God or the actual hand of God. This can hardly be
construed as the imaginary indolence of God the infralapsarian
suggests. Psalms is clear: The soul of the wicked is the sword of God
against David. Coming against the anointed king of Israel was and
remains a sin. I find it hard to imagine God wielding a sword
passively. The wicked men are said to be the hand of God again
indicating God's desire to have the power of controlling and causing
the wicked to sin ascribed to Him. Would we dare try to take this away?


The passage in Isaiah 10 is part of a greater context which deals with
the active sovereignty over the king of Assyria:

Isaiah 10:5-15 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in
their hand is mine indignation. {6} I will send him against an
hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him
a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them
down like the mire of the streets. {7} Howbeit he meaneth not so,
neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and
cut off nations not a few. {8} For he saith, Are not my princes
altogether kings? {9} Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as
Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus? {10} As my hand hath found the
kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of
Jerusalem and of Samaria: {11} Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria
and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? {12} Wherefore it
shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work
upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout
heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks. {13} For
he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom;
for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have
robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a
valiant man: {14} And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the
people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all
the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth,
or peeped. {15} Shall the ax boast itself against him that heweth
therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it?
as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as
if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

God in no uncertain terms identifies the king of Assyria as a saw and
an ax. God reproves him for thinking he is not wood. First, saws, axes,
and pieces of wood do not move themselves:

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being...

We cannot move, think, or exist unless God causes each and every
thought, action, and breath. God further describes His control over the
king of Assyria:

Isaiah 14:24-27 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have
thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it
stand: {25} That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my
mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off
them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders. {26} This is the
purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand
that is stretched out upon all the nations. {27} For the LORD of hosts
hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched
out, and who shall turn it back?

Compare this active control over the heart of the king of Assyria with
this passage:

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the
rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Joseph Stalin murdered over fifty million people. Adolph Hitler
murdered over six million people. The death toll of Bill Clinton's
victims is rising every year with the demise of millions of babies.
What is God's purpose? Why is God turning the heart of Clinton to do
this? God is said to be turning the heart of Clinton as the rivers of
water, withersoever He wills. What right does God have?

What about the man that curses the godly king?

Exodus 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy
people.

Yet consider the sovereignty of God over the heart of Shimei:

2 Samuel 16:5-12 And when king David came to Bahurim, behold, thence
came out a man of the family of the house of Saul, whose name was
Shimei, the son of Gera: he came forth, and cursed still as he came.
{6} And he cast stones at David, and at all the servants of king David:
and all the people and all the mighty men were on his right hand and on
his left. {7} And thus said Shimei when he cursed, Come out, come out,
thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial: {8} The LORD hath returned
upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast
reigned; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of
Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief, because
thou art a bloody man. {9} Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto
the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go
over, I pray thee, and take off his head. {10} And the king said, What
have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because
the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore
hast thou done so? {11} And David said to Abishai, and to all his
servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my
life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and
let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him. {12} It may be that the
LORD will look on mine affliction, and that the LORD will requite me
good for his cursing this day.

David's response to this cursing is stunning not only from the
perspective of examining his godliness; it is also stunning that he
ascribed the causal factor of Shimei's cursing to God. It was a sin for
Shimei to curse David. David said:

"so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David.
Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so?" The Lord inviting
Shimei even goes beyond the control of this man's heart to sin. God is
actually said to have invited Shimei to commit this sin. But remember,
God causes all things to work together for good, as David said:

2 Samuel 16:12 It may be that the LORD will look on mine affliction,
and that the LORD will requite me good for his cursing this day.

God actually stops good counsel when it serves His purpose:

2 Samuel 17:14 And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel
of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the
LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the
intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.

Two things: First, God appointed to defeat the good counsel of
Ahithophel. Second, God intended to bring evil upon Absalom by
defeating the good counsel. We see God's active sovereign power to
cause goodness to cease so that He might bring about the destruction of
His enemies. This seems to be a regular pattern of God. This sheds
light on the murders of millions by the aforementioned men. God has
done this that they might be destroyed forever.

The Bible says:

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Lying is sin which is transgression of the law:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin
is the transgression of the law.

The following verses show God's active sovereignty over this sin:

2 Chronicles 18:19-22 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of
Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake
saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. {20}
Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I
will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? {21} And he
said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his
prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also
prevail: go out, and do even so. {22} Now therefore, behold, the LORD
hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the
LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
Ezekiel 14:9-10 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a
thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my
hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
{10} And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the
punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that
seeketh unto him;

When the Bible says that God put a lying spirit in the mouth of the
prophets, this is not the same as saying God passively overlooked the
sin. Or as one put it when replying to another's Infra &
Supralapsarianism, "Seems to me that God is passive (passed over)
toward [the] non-elect". Both of these men affirm the infralapsarian
doctrine of a passive God. Though these men would never confess that
their view is modified Deism (the belief that God created the world and
then left it to itself to operate), yet in theology, if God is passive
over evil, God is passive over the vast majority of human affairs; thus
Deism would be correct in well over ninety percent of human history.

Quite honestly, that is a terrifying thought. I shudder at thinking
that evil is just on a free course allowed by God to transpire. I
shudder ever greater at a doctrine that denies God his rightful place
in the active control and cause of evil. The Bible says that the Lord
told the lying spirit (which God created) to entice King Ahab and that
the lying spirit should prevail. With even more strength God says in
Ezekiel, "...if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I
the LORD have deceived that prophet." Is this a passive deception? I
have never heard of such an idea. God actively deceives people
everyday. He did this in the Old Testament and He does it in the New
Testament:

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 Even him, whose coming is after the working of
Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all
deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they
received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And
for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should
believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the
truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Revelation 17:16-17 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast,
these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and
shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. {17} For God hath put in
their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom
unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

God did not passively send the false teachers strong delusion. God did
not passively put it into their hearts to follow the beast. These
actions were caused by the active power of God to show Himself strong:

2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout
the whole earth, to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose
heart is perfect toward him.

Finally, the greatest atrocity in human history, the crucifixion of the
Lord of glory, the Lord Jesus Christ, is shown to have been caused by
God. The Lord of glory Himself testified of this:

John 19:10-11 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me?
knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to
release thee? {11} Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all
against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that
delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

A question must be raised: Was it a sin to crucify Christ?

Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and
righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Was Christ innocent? Did the Jews slay Him? Peter seemed to think so:

Acts 2:22-23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a
man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which
God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: {23}
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of
God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

But Peter did not merely proclaim this truth before men. He was utterly
bold with the rest of the apostles as they prayed:

Acts 4:25-28 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did
the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? {26} The kings of
the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the
Lord, and against his Christ. {27} For of a truth against thy holy
child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate,
with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
{28} For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to
be done.

The question David raised was, "Why did the heathen rage and the people
imagine vain things. Peter answers the question: "For of a truth
against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and
Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were
gathered together, {28} For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel
determined before to be done.

Peter exclaims, "Of a truth" these wicked men were "gathered (not
passively) to do whatever Thy hand (active) and Thy counsel (decree)
determined before (predestined) to be done." There is no escaping it.
God actively caused these men to crucify Christ to such a degree that
God is said to have bruised Christ (Isaiah 53:10).

Here we see perhaps the greatest end of why God causes men to sin.
Without this active power of God demonstrated and exercised every one
of us would certainly be damned. These men could not have crucified
Christ unless God caused them to crucify Him. This is precisely what
Christ was saying to Pilate.

Even Isaiah did not deny God causing sin and hardening people:

Isaiah 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and
hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the
tribes of thine inheritance.

There is no passiveness about this verse. Notice that Isaiah does not
say, "Oh LORD, you passively let this happen. Why? After all God, you
could have stopped it." No, rather, the prophet asks what we all ask,
"Why hast Thou made (active, not passive) us to err from Thy ways (to
err from God's ways is sin) and hardened (active, not passive) our
heart from Thy fear (to not fear God is sin)?" Isaiah does not try to
take away God's rightful place as the absolute Sovereign over evil.
Instead, Isaiah has the Biblical and God-fearing response, "Restore for
Thy servant's sake, the tribes of Thine inheritance." Isaiah begs God
to restore His people; and even this begging and making mention of the
name of the Lord is by God:

Isaiah 26:12-13 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast
wrought all our works in us. {13} O LORD our God, other lords beside
thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention
of thy name.

God hardened the people from fearing Him. Yet, God is the one who must
put that fear in man:

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that
I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear
in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

This corresponds perfectly with Psalms:

Psalms 90:1-3 A Prayer of Moses the man of God. LORD, thou hast been
our dwelling place in all generations. {2} Before the mountains were
brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even
from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. {3} Thou turnest man to
destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

God turned us to destruction and then said, "Return, ye children of
men." But how do we turn?

Jeremiah 31:18-19 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus;
Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed
to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD
my God. {19} Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that
I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even
confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
Lamentations 5:19-21 Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; thy throne from
generation to generation. {20} Wherefore dost thou forget us for ever,
and forsake us so long time? {21} Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and
we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

The argument presented here was virtually without any extra-biblical
logic. I have not found any infralapsarian who can refute the
Scriptures presented here. In fact, it is the infralapsarian who
attempts to impose faulty human logic upon the Scripture. I have been
accused of just using logic. I welcome anyone to show me that the
supralapsarian position is unbiblical. You weigh the positions. Let
your conscience examine the Scriptures. May those of you who have
previously disagreed be humbled at the Scriptures presented and boldly
admit and proclaim the God who is able to save and to destroy; the God
who has created all things for His purpose, yea, even the wicked for
the day of evil.

Its Practical Implications:

At this point we must examine the practical implications of
supralapsarianism. After all, is this not one of the chief objectives
of all doctrine we believe? Of course our highest objective is the
glory of God for the doctrines which so perfectly describe Him. But
next to this is how the acknowledgment of the doctrines of God must
have an abounding effect in the Christian life. Doctrine without effect
is like seed on thorny ground. Because of the sobering implications of
this doctrine we must be utterly cautious as to the way we manage and
disseminate the truth at hand. To the disgrace of Christianity, many
unbelievers have taken this ominous doctrine and used it to bring shame
to the name of Christ.

Basically the way they handle this doctrine leads to what is ironically
called fatalism. To view the doctrine of supralapsarianism as an excuse
to sin against God is unquestionably a fatal mistake. They negate the
responsibility of man in their defective analysis of the sovereignty of
God. Responsibility is often assumed to be the freedom of the will. The
terribly perplexing aspect of the sovereignty of God is that which
confronted the opponent in Romans 9. The opponent was confronted with
this foreboding doctrine and it angered him. His response was
fatalistic. The God of the Bible was not suitable for his worldview.
The fatalist makes the fatal flaw of disregarding his utter need to
praise God for the glory of His power.

A proper view of the sovereignty of God loves to be a part of His plan
to praise and trust Jesus Christ for the working of obedience to His
word:
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to
do of his good pleasure.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not
of yourselves: it is the gift of God: {9} Not of works, lest any man
should boast. {10} For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in
them.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained
you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit
should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name,
he may give it you.
God's absolute sovereignty works itself in our lives in manners such as
causing us to stumble when we become exalted in our victories over
certain sins thinking we have mastered those sins forever. We begin to
forget the power of God. God in His infinite and penetrating love
seizes the pride and scourges every son whom He receives. Through sin
God reminds the Christian of the weakness that left them pale in the
vice of death.

The true Christian is brought to a place of a deep and gripping fear of
God that is in awe of Him and delights in His almighty power. The true
Christian ascribes infinite value to each and every attribute of God.
The true Christian falls upon the mercy seat of Christ and is broken
but not crushed to powder. The true Christian cries "Abba, Father" as
they tremble at their inability to please Him who has the power to
throw men into eternal punishment yet will never touch the souls of His
elect with even an ember of His wrath. For God's blessed Son has
carried the eternal weight of their guilt. The true Christian sings
daily at the throne of their God:

What Thou, my Lord, hast suffered was all for sinner's gain
Mine, mine was the transgression, but Thine the deadly pain.
Lo, here I fall my Savior, 'Tis I deserve Thy place;
Look on me with Thy favor, Vouch safe to me Thy grace.

The Father then brings the comforts of His love to the heart of His
children that He rejoices over them with singing. He says to His bride:
"Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was
the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy
nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with
thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine." The true Christian's
only response can be nothing else but that which the Psalmist prayed:

Psalms 43:2-5 For thou art the God of my strength: why dost thou cast
me off? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy? {3} O
send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead me; let them bring me
unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacles. {4} Then will I go unto the
altar of God, unto God my exceeding joy: yea, upon the harp will I
praise thee, O God my God. {5} Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and
why art thou disquieted within me? hope in God: for I shall yet praise
him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.

Thus through the sovereign, providential power of God, He brings joy to
the hearts of His children. This is our lot for eternity. May we hear
the Lord of glory rejoicing over us with singing:

Zephaniah 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will
save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he
will joy over thee with singing.
http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=553


 
 
Britt Malka (26-01-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Britt Malka


Dato : 26-01-05 22:27

On 25 Jan 2005 09:11:27 -0800, "Alex" <universalistdk@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Jeg er kompromisløs monoteist

Hvordan skal det forstås? Så du er ikke kristen?

--
Britt Malka
Tilmeld dig Tips&Tricks og få en gratis e-bog: Kan alle se din hjemmeside?
http://www.tips-og-tricks.com/ebogvalider.html

Andreas Falck (27-01-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Andreas Falck


Dato : 27-01-05 10:07

I news:2o2gv0hd7bpdhfum60kd8i45m8jk43peq4@4ax.com skrev
Britt Malka følgende:

>> Jeg er kompromisløs monoteist
>
> Hvordan skal det forstås? Så du er ikke kristen?

Kristne er monoteister.

--
Med venlig hilsen Andreas Falck - ICQ 108 480 093
http://bibeltro.dk/ - *Om Bibelen og bibeloversættelser*
http://maranatha.dk/ + http://skabelsen.info/ + *DebatForum*
http://ravsted.dk/ - http://ravsted.net/


Jens Bruun (27-01-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Jens Bruun


Dato : 27-01-05 17:45

"Andreas Falck" <fake@skrift.invalid> skrev i en meddelelse
news:41f8af3d$0$177$edfadb0f@dtext02.news.tele.dk

> Kristne er monoteister.

Faderen, sønnen og helligånden? Lyder mere som polyteisme.

"Min gud, min gud, hvorfor har du forladt mig?"

--
-Jens B.
http://www.fotolog.dk - My photo diary (Last updated 01/24/05)
http://gallery.bruun.com/index.php?cat=10003 - My photo gallery



Andreas Falck (27-01-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Andreas Falck


Dato : 27-01-05 19:08

I news:ctb5qc$jrn$1@news.cybercity.dk skrev
Jens Bruun følgende:

>> Kristne er monoteister.
>
> Faderen, sønnen og helligånden? Lyder mere som polyteisme.

Jeg kan da kun anbefale dig at studere nærmere hvad Bibelen fortæller
om Guddommen!

Er du frisk på at tage et lille seriøst studium om dette emne?

--
Med venlig hilsen Andreas Falck - ICQ 108 480 093
http://bibeltro.dk/ - *Om Bibelen og bibeloversættelser*
http://maranatha.dk/ + http://skabelsen.info/ + *DebatForum*
http://ravsted.dk/ - http://ravsted.net/


Ukendt (27-01-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Ukendt


Dato : 27-01-05 19:52

"Andreas Falck" <fake@skrift.invalid> skrev i en meddelelse
news:41f92e1b$0$183$edfadb0f@dtext02.news.tele.dk...
>I news:ctb5qc$jrn$1@news.cybercity.dk skrev
> Jens Bruun følgende:
>
>>> Kristne er monoteister.
>>
>> Faderen, sønnen og helligånden? Lyder mere som polyteisme.
>
> Jeg kan da kun anbefale dig at studere nærmere hvad Bibelen fortæller om
> Guddommen!
>
> Er du frisk på at tage et lille seriøst studium om dette emne?

Hvad om du selv gjorde det?

Jeg tror ikke man skal tage så let på det bibelske budskab. Det er ikke for
ingenting af der står som der gør i 2 Korinther 4:4.

--
Med venlig hilsen

Filip Drejer Johnsen
Et af Jehovas Vidner
www.watchtower.org eller på dansk www.watchtower.org/languages/danish



Andreas Falck (27-01-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Andreas Falck


Dato : 27-01-05 20:29

I news:41f9387d$0$48321$14726298@news.sunsite.dk skrev
Filip Drejer Johnsen følgende:

>> Er du frisk på at tage et lille seriøst studium om dette emne?
>
> Hvad om du selv gjorde det?

Ja, jeg er både frisk på det, og mere end villig til det

> Jeg tror ikke man skal tage så let på det bibelske budskab.

Hvor har du den idé fra at lige netop jeg skulle tage let på det
bibelske budskab?

> Det er ikke for ingenting af der står som der gør i 2 Korinther 4:4.

Hvad får dig til at bringe netop det skriftsted ind i debatten lige
her?

--
Med venlig hilsen Andreas Falck - ICQ 108 480 093
http://bibeltro.dk/ - *Om Bibelen og bibeloversættelser*
http://maranatha.dk/ + http://skabelsen.info/ + *DebatForum*
http://ravsted.dk/ - http://ravsted.net/


Ukendt (27-01-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Ukendt


Dato : 27-01-05 22:17

"Andreas Falck" <fake@skrift.invalid> skrev i en meddelelse
news:41f94102$2$164$edfadb0f@dtext02.news.tele.dk...
>I news:41f9387d$0$48321$14726298@news.sunsite.dk skrev
> Filip Drejer Johnsen følgende:
>
>>> Er du frisk på at tage et lille seriøst studium om dette emne?
>>
>> Hvad om du selv gjorde det?
>
> Ja, jeg er både frisk på det, og mere end villig til det

Det ved jeg.

>> Jeg tror ikke man skal tage så let på det bibelske budskab.
>
> Hvor har du den idé fra at lige netop jeg skulle tage let på det bibelske
> budskab?

Din kommentar om at "Jeg kan da kun anbefale dig at studere nærmere hvad
Bibelen fortæller om Guddommen!" Jeg forstod det måske lidt for kort, men
for mange er det faktisk ikke et kort og overskueligt studium, tværtimod!

>> Det er ikke for ingenting af der står som der gør i 2 Korinther 4:4.
>
> Hvad får dig til at bringe netop det skriftsted ind i debatten lige her?

Der er en grund til at der er så mange 'kristne' sekter. Grunden nævnes i
det vers, og det er også det vers der forklarer hvorfor det kan være
vanskeligt for os alle at drøfte vores holdninger - og skaffe enighed om nok
så simple grundlærdomme. Der er simpelthen en mægtig åndeskabning, der søger
at forblinde os alle - mig, dig, og alle andre.

Det var min tanke, og det var ikke personligt ment, blot som en lille
påmindelse om at vi ikke må tro at det vi véd er for let og grundlæggende,
og at alle der ikke forstår og anerkender det enten er tumper eller
ondsindede. Mange er - ifølge 2 Korinther 4:4 - forblindede. Hverken mere
eller mindre.

Og det bør give os alle en vis ydmyghed. Vi skal stå op for hvad der er ret
og hvad vi tror på, men vi må 1) anerkende at andre kan have vanskeligheder
ved at forstå hvad vi siger, ikke fordi der er noget galt med dem, men fordi
vi har en usynlig modspiller, og 2) at vi måske også selv er forblindede, og
derfor hele tiden må have ørerne åbne - særligt når vi ikke tror at der kan
komme noget godt.

--
Kærligst,

Filip Drejer Johnsen
Et af Jehovas Vidner
www.watchtower.org eller på dansk www.watchtower.org/languages/danish



Andreas Falck (27-01-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Andreas Falck


Dato : 27-01-05 23:07

I news:41f95a59$0$48317$14726298@news.sunsite.dk skrev
Filip Drejer Johnsen følgende:

>>>> Er du frisk på at tage et lille seriøst studium om dette emne?
>>>
>>> Hvad om du selv gjorde det?
>>
>> Ja, jeg er både frisk på det, og mere end villig til det
>
> Det ved jeg.
>
>>> Jeg tror ikke man skal tage så let på det bibelske budskab.
>>
>> Hvor har du den idé fra at lige netop jeg skulle tage let på det
>> bibelske budskab?
>
> Din kommentar om at "Jeg kan da kun anbefale dig at studere nærmere
> hvad Bibelen fortæller om Guddommen!" Jeg forstod det måske lidt
> for kort, men for mange er det faktisk ikke et kort og overskueligt
> studium, tværtimod!

Jeg skrev jo heller ikke "et kort og overskueligt studium" men et
"lille seriøst studium" - og jeg ser da en forskel på de to
formuleringer. Gør du ikke?

--
Med venlig hilsen Andreas Falck - ICQ 108 480 093
http://bibeltro.dk/ - *Om Bibelen og bibeloversættelser*
http://maranatha.dk/ + http://skabelsen.info/ + *DebatForum*
http://ravsted.dk/ - http://ravsted.net/


Alex (28-01-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Alex


Dato : 28-01-05 12:09


Britt Malka wrote:
> On 25 Jan 2005 09:11:27 -0800, "Alex" <universalistdk@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Jeg er kompromisløs monoteist
>
> Hvordan skal det forstås? Så du er ikke kristen?
>
> --
> Britt Malka
> Tilmeld dig Tips&Tricks og få en gratis e-bog: Kan alle se din
hjemmeside?
> http://www.tips-og-tricks.com/ebogvalider.html

Jeg synes ikke hverken treenighedslæren, unitarismen eller arianismen
gør det godt nok. Jeg bekender mig til en kompromisløs tro på én
Gud og Jesus som denne ene Gud i kød. Læren kaldes ofte "Oneness".


Britt Malka (28-01-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Britt Malka


Dato : 28-01-05 13:10

On 28 Jan 2005 03:09:20 -0800, "Alex" <universalistdk@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Jeg bekender mig til en kompromisløs tro på én
>Gud og Jesus som denne ene Gud i kød. Læren kaldes ofte "Oneness".

Okay, den havde jeg ikke hørt om, men ... jeg bliver lidt forvirret af
at tænke på, hvordan det så skal forstås, når Jesus kalder "min Gud,
min Gud" eller taler om en "fader" i himlen.

Hvordan får du det til at hænge sammen?

--
Britt Malka
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Alex (28-01-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Alex


Dato : 28-01-05 14:17

Britt Malka wrote:
> On 28 Jan 2005 03:09:20 -0800, "Alex" <universalistdk@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Jeg bekender mig til en kompromisløs tro på én
> >Gud og Jesus som denne ene Gud i kød. Læren kaldes ofte "Oneness".
>
> Okay, den havde jeg ikke hørt om, men ... jeg bliver lidt forvirret
af
> at tænke på, hvordan det så skal forstås, når Jesus kalder "min
Gud,
> min Gud" eller taler om en "fader" i himlen.
>
> Hvordan får du det til at hænge sammen?
>

Hej Britt,

Vi "Oneness" folk tror ligesom i treenighedslæren at Jesus er sand Gud
og sandt menneske. Vi tror det så bare mere kompromisløst og
konsekvent end de gør. Jesus blev menneske/Sønnen men ophørte ikke
med at være Gud/Faderen. Som Søn bundet af kødet, som Faderen
almægtig, allestedsnærværende osv. Den samme person i 2 eksistenser
(hvor problematisk den forklaring end er). Når Jesus eksempelvis
beder, så¨ser vi ikke at Gud Sønnen i samspil med sin menneskenatur
beder til Gud Faderen. Istedet ser vi et sandt menneske bede til en
sand Gud i og med at behovet for at bede kommer fra menneskenaturen.
Dette er forsøg på at forklare noget vi ikke kan overskue. Når vi
taler om inkarnationen så bevæger vi os udenfor grænselandet for
vores fatteevne. Pointen ved at tro på modellen er at treenighed har
for meget polyteisme over sig, at det på ingen måde hjælper
inkarnationstanken at Gud er flere guddommelige personer, samt at det
tydeligt understreges at den kristne kun har en Gud og Herre.


Britt Malka (28-01-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Britt Malka


Dato : 28-01-05 15:04

On 28 Jan 2005 05:16:34 -0800, "Alex" <universalistdk@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Vi "Oneness" folk tror ligesom i treenighedslæren at Jesus er sand Gud
>og sandt menneske.

Tak for din forklaring på, hvad Oneness går ud på.

--
Britt Malka
Tilmeld dig Tips&Tricks og få en gratis e-bog: Kan alle se din hjemmeside?
http://www.tips-og-tricks.com/ebogvalider.html

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