---

....for regeringen:

"En ny terrorplan lægger op til mere overvågning og flere beføjelser til
efterretningstjenesterne"
http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=405697

Naturligvis skal dette hastes igennem inden der falder dom over dem som just
er blevet fængslet fordi de angiveligt har medvirket til at planlægge terror
i Bosnien.

Mvh
Zeki

---

"Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in message
news:7_V9f.73006$Fe7.247862@news000.worldonline.dk...
> ...for regeringen:
>
> "En ny terrorplan lægger op til mere overvågning og flere beføjelser til
> efterretningstjenesterne"
> http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=405697
>
> Naturligvis skal dette hastes igennem inden der falder dom over dem som
> just er blevet fængslet fordi de angiveligt har medvirket til at planlægge
> terror i Bosnien.

jada - Nøjagtigt ligesom man vil kende resultatet af en afstmening om
indførelse af dødsstraf, hvis man holder den umiidelbart efter at en 8 årig
pige er blevet voldtaget og dræbt.

Denne regering er mesteren i at manipulere

Peter

---

"Peter K. Nielsen" <nixen@bixen.dk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:43686c34$0$1806$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
>
> "Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in message
> news:7_V9f.73006$Fe7.247862@news000.worldonline.dk...
>> ...for regeringen:
>>
>> "En ny terrorplan lægger op til mere overvågning og flere beføjelser til
>> efterretningstjenesterne"
>> http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=405697
>>
>> Naturligvis skal dette hastes igennem inden der falder dom over dem som
>> just er blevet fængslet fordi de angiveligt har medvirket til at
>> planlægge terror i Bosnien.
>
> jada - Nøjagtigt ligesom man vil kende resultatet af en afstmening om
> indførelse af dødsstraf, hvis man holder den umiidelbart efter at en 8
> årig pige er blevet voldtaget og dræbt.
>
> Denne regering er mesteren i at manipulere

Og så er de 7 unge ikke engang dømt endnu. Det kan være at terrorsagen fiser
ud i ingenting. Politiet virker meget nervøse i sagen og det lugter lidt af
at bevisbyrden er noget tynd.

--
Kim Larsen

Socialist, republikaner, EU-tilhænger og atomkraftmodstander.
Socialisme er den eneste troværdige vej frem.
Husk at krigen i Irak er folkeretligt smask-ulovlig.

Direkte e-mail: kl2607x@yahoo.dk (fjern x´et)

---

"Peter K. Nielsen" <nixen@bixen.dk> wrote in message
news:43686c34$0$1806$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
>
> "Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in message
> news:7_V9f.73006$Fe7.247862@news000.worldonline.dk...
>> ...for regeringen:
>>
>> "En ny terrorplan lægger op til mere overvågning og flere beføjelser til
>> efterretningstjenesterne"
>> http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=405697
>>
>> Naturligvis skal dette hastes igennem inden der falder dom over dem som
>> just er blevet fængslet fordi de angiveligt har medvirket til at
>> planlægge terror i Bosnien.
>
> jada - Nøjagtigt ligesom man vil kende resultatet af en afstmening om
> indførelse af dødsstraf, hvis man holder den umiidelbart efter at en 8
> årig pige er blevet voldtaget og dræbt.
>
> Denne regering er mesteren i at manipulere

Uanset om "der falder dom", så er realiteterne mht de unge menneskers
medvirken til terrorplanlægning vel de samme? Og det er et faktum at mange
unge muslimer radikaliseres mere og mere, som der var artikler om i går i
medierne?

I går var der også lige en af disse, "hvis de ikke kan dømmes, er de
uskyldige", sager. Ti rumænere har levet i et forladt hus i et rum på 12 m2,
de havde tasker fulde af ghettoblastere, mobiltelefoner, smykker og andre
gode ting. De blev løsladt og kunne frit fortsætte "ferien" i Danmark, fordi
man ikke kunne bevise at varerne var stjålne. Skal vi så også sige, at de
"naturligvis" er uskyldige turister, fordi man pga bevisets stilling ikke
kan gøre noget?
Den sag er endda ikke så oplagt, som sagen med de unge fromme muslimer, - så
vidt man kan se fra medierne, - som man måske også må opgive at dømme, fordi
de ikke nåede at trykke på bælterne, det er set før, fx i Holland, at man
kan planlægge terror, men at man ikke bliver dømt, fordi man ikke har nået
at udføre tingene. Måske er man blevet barskere siden?
Anyway, så er truslen der jo, uanset hvad der sker i Bosnien-sagen. Jeg
synes iøvrigt også at man er for hysterisk med tasker i tog, vi må
formodentlig fremover leve med, at der engang i mellem ryger et tog i
luften, lige som vi må leve med risikoen på motorvejene. Den væsentligste
forskel er om terroren eskalerer til langt alvorligere ting end fem kg
sprængstoffer i en rygsæk, for så er fanden jo løs.

---

"Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:43687185$0$67263$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk...

> Skal vi så også sige, at de "naturligvis" er uskyldige turister, fordi man
> pga bevisets stilling ikke kan gøre noget?

Ja, det skal vi faktisk. For det er nu den måde vi har valdt at indrette
vores retssamfund på. At det er vigtigere at uskyldige ikke bliver kendt
skyldig, end at skyldige bliver kendt uskyldig.

> Den sag er endda ikke så oplagt, som sagen med de unge fromme muslimer,

Hvorfor er den oplagt?

Vil du også have indført et tankepoliti?

Hvorfor tror du f.eks at forsvarerne for de unge raser?

> Anyway, så er truslen der jo, uanset hvad der sker i Bosnien-sagen. Jeg
> synes iøvrigt også at man er for hysterisk med tasker i tog, vi må
> formodentlig fremover leve med, at der engang i mellem ryger et tog i
> luften

Hvornår har der sidst været en terroraktion i Danmark? (var det ikke et
eller andet flyselskab det gik ud over i Kbh for 20 år siden?)

USA og England har oplevet terror på det seneste, og de er gået helt i
selvsving med at ville dømme uden beviser. Fogh beroliger dog med at vi ikke
får sådanne tilstande her. Men mon han vil have en anden opfattelse hvis der
sprang en bombe i morgen foran den amerikanske ambassasde, f.eks?

Vil du synes at det ville være okay, hvis Danmark blev udsat for terror? At
vi siger "okay, vi overgiver os" til terroristerne? For det er jo det vi
gør. Giver afkald på det demokrati som har taget os over 150 år at opbygge.

'Tryghed' er desværre blevet den helt store salgsvare for mange politikere i
Vesten. For det forudsætter at de spiller på folks frygt, og dette finder
jeg forkasteligt.

Mvh
Zeki

---

"Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in message
news:kL5af.73066$Fe7.247985@news000.worldonline.dk...
> "Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:43687185$0$67263$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk...
>
>> Skal vi så også sige, at de "naturligvis" er uskyldige turister, fordi
>> man pga bevisets stilling ikke kan gøre noget?
>
> Ja, det skal vi faktisk. For det er nu den måde vi har valdt at indrette
> vores retssamfund på. At det er vigtigere at uskyldige ikke bliver kendt
> skyldig, end at skyldige bliver kendt uskyldig.

Naturligvis skal vi ikke lade, som om vi er idioter, fordi man *retsligt* må
lade en sag falde. Der er også sager, hvor fx en forkert papirgang betyder
at 100% sikre skyldige, må lades gå.

>
>> Den sag er endda ikke så oplagt, som sagen med de unge fromme muslimer,
>
> Hvorfor er den oplagt?
>
> Vil du også have indført et tankepoliti?

Hvad er det for noget fis og komme med? Man har deres kommunikation, man har
selvmordsbælter, rejser til fællerne andre steder i Europa, en farvel-video
osv.

>
> Hvorfor tror du f.eks at forsvarerne for de unge raser?

De raser, fordi det bliver vanskeligt at få de unge frikendt? Jeg ved ikke
hvorfor de raser, hvis de gør det.

>
>> Anyway, så er truslen der jo, uanset hvad der sker i Bosnien-sagen. Jeg
>> synes iøvrigt også at man er for hysterisk med tasker i tog, vi må
>> formodentlig fremover leve med, at der engang i mellem ryger et tog i
>> luften
>
> Hvornår har der sidst været en terroraktion i Danmark? (var det ikke et
> eller andet flyselskab det gik ud over i Kbh for 20 år siden?)

Jo, men tingene ser jo mildest talt anderledes ud i dag.

>
> USA og England har oplevet terror på det seneste, og de er gået helt i
> selvsving med at ville dømme uden beviser. Fogh beroliger dog med at vi
> ikke får sådanne tilstande her. Men mon han vil have en anden opfattelse
> hvis der sprang en bombe i morgen foran den amerikanske ambassasde, f.eks?
>
> Vil du synes at det ville være okay, hvis Danmark blev udsat for terror?
> At vi siger "okay, vi overgiver os" til terroristerne? For det er jo det
> vi gør. Giver afkald på det demokrati som har taget os over 150 år at
> opbygge.
>
> 'Tryghed' er desværre blevet den helt store salgsvare for mange politikere
> i Vesten. For det forudsætter at de spiller på folks frygt, og dette
> finder jeg forkasteligt.

Selvfølgelig skal vi ikke overgive os, jeg siger jo også det modsatte, vi må
bare lære at leve med, at der er folk, som vil os til livs pga vores
forkerte livsstil og vores umoral.

---

"Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:4368ee8e$0$78287$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...

>> Ja, det skal vi faktisk. For det er nu den måde vi har valdt at indrette
>> vores retssamfund på. At det er vigtigere at uskyldige ikke bliver kendt
>> skyldig, end at skyldige bliver kendt uskyldig.

> Naturligvis skal vi ikke lade, som om vi er idioter, fordi man *retsligt*
> må lade en sag falde.

Det skriver jeg heller ikke. Men loven skal følges, og sigtede skal have
sigtedes rettigheder. Hvorfor er du uenig i dette?

>>> Den sag er endda ikke så oplagt, som sagen med de unge fromme muslimer,

>> Hvorfor er den oplagt?
>> Vil du også have indført et tankepoliti?

> Hvad er det for noget fis og komme med? Man har deres kommunikation, man
> har selvmordsbælter, rejser til fællerne andre steder i Europa, en
> farvel-video osv.

Og? De er jo "kun"sigtet efter terrorparagraf 114 som forbyder økonomisk
støtte til organiserede terrororganisationer.
Lur mig om de ikke ender med at gå fri efter 16.november.

"Der er intet grundlag for at mistænke dansk-marokkaneren Said Mansour for
at overtræde af straffelovens terrorparagraf 114. Det oplyser Politiets
Efterretningstjeneste (PET) i en pressemeddelelse."
http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/article.jhtml?articleID=118478

>> Hvorfor tror du f.eks at forsvarerne for de unge raser?

> De raser, fordi det bliver vanskeligt at få de unge frikendt?

Nej da. Ikke hvis loven bliver fulgt. Og det er jo lige netop politiets
problem. Det er nok derfor de så ihærdigt forsøger at lukke låg på sagen.
Forsvarerne raser selvfølgelig fordi dansk retsplejelov ikke bliver
overholdt: http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=405233

>>> Anyway, så er truslen der jo, uanset hvad der sker i Bosnien-sagen.

Jamen, der vil altid eksistere trusler. Politiet anbefaler heller ikke at
kvinder skal blive hjemme inden mørkets frembrud, fordi der i landet findes
voldtægtsforbrydere, vel?

>> Hvornår har der sidst været en terroraktion i Danmark? (var det ikke et
>> eller andet flyselskab det gik ud over i Kbh for 20 år siden?)

> Jo, men tingene ser jo mildest talt anderledes ud i dag.

End dengang i 70'erne hvor PLO, PLFA, IRA, Bader Meinhoof, ETA og, RAF
huserede?

Mvh
Zeki

---

"Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in message
news:DN6af.73071$Fe7.248148@news000.worldonline.dk...
> "Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:4368ee8e$0$78287$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...
>
>>> Ja, det skal vi faktisk. For det er nu den måde vi har valdt at indrette
>>> vores retssamfund på. At det er vigtigere at uskyldige ikke bliver kendt
>>> skyldig, end at skyldige bliver kendt uskyldig.
>
>> Naturligvis skal vi ikke lade, som om vi er idioter, fordi man *retsligt*
>> må lade en sag falde.
>
> Det skriver jeg heller ikke. Men loven skal følges, og sigtede skal have
> sigtedes rettigheder. Hvorfor er du uenig i dette?

Det har jeg aldrig været uenig i, kun at man skal "lade som om" folk er
"uskyldige" selv når de med garanti ER skyldige, men ikke kan dømmes pga
manglende beviskraft.


>
>>>> Den sag er endda ikke så oplagt, som sagen med de unge fromme muslimer,
>
>>> Hvorfor er den oplagt?
>>> Vil du også have indført et tankepoliti?
>
>> Hvad er det for noget fis og komme med? Man har deres kommunikation, man
>> har selvmordsbælter, rejser til fællerne andre steder i Europa, en
>> farvel-video osv.
>
> Og? De er jo "kun"sigtet efter terrorparagraf 114 som forbyder økonomisk
> støtte til organiserede terrororganisationer.
> Lur mig om de ikke ender med at gå fri efter 16.november.

Det er muligt at medierne overdriver, hvad man ved, men da de jo ikke HAR
banket deres bælter af, så bliver de da nok mere eller mindre frikendt, som
du siger.

>
> "Der er intet grundlag for at mistænke dansk-marokkaneren Said Mansour for
> at overtræde af straffelovens terrorparagraf 114. Det oplyser Politiets
> Efterretningstjeneste (PET) i en pressemeddelelse."
> http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/article.jhtml?articleID=118478

Nej, der er vel heller ingen der har sagt at HAN har deltaget i fysisk
planlægning, han uddeler bare de lækre hovedafskæringsvideoer og andre ting,
som åbenbart får nogle muslimer til at ville være med på vognen. Mon ikke
man tænker at, "når nogen kan lave så bestialske ting, så MÅ de vestlige
fjender være langt værre", eller noget i den retning? Eller må man jo gå ud
fra, at det er sadister man rekrutterer.


>
>>> Hvorfor tror du f.eks at forsvarerne for de unge raser?
>
>> De raser, fordi det bliver vanskeligt at få de unge frikendt?
>
> Nej da. Ikke hvis loven bliver fulgt. Og det er jo lige netop politiets
> problem. Det er nok derfor de så ihærdigt forsøger at lukke låg på sagen.
> Forsvarerne raser selvfølgelig fordi dansk retsplejelov ikke bliver
> overholdt: http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=405233

Politiet siger jo at folk uden for fængslet er *meget* interesseret i at
kommunikere med de isolerede, og at de derfor har nedtrappet hvad de vil
udtale sig om.


>
>>>> Anyway, så er truslen der jo, uanset hvad der sker i Bosnien-sagen.
>
> Jamen, der vil altid eksistere trusler. Politiet anbefaler heller ikke at
> kvinder skal blive hjemme inden mørkets frembrud, fordi der i landet
> findes voldtægtsforbrydere, vel?

Nej, men der bliver vel heller ikke flere og flere af den slags forbrydere,
som på Internettet "lover" at komme efter kvinderne.


>
>>> Hvornår har der sidst været en terroraktion i Danmark? (var det ikke et
>>> eller andet flyselskab det gik ud over i Kbh for 20 år siden?)
>
>> Jo, men tingene ser jo mildest talt anderledes ud i dag.
>
> End dengang i 70'erne hvor PLO, PLFA, IRA, Bader Meinhoof, ETA og, RAF
> huserede?

Ja, - kun PLO og PFLP kunne jo finde på at bombe i Danmark, og ville finde
bombemål, som havde noget med deres fjender at gøre - fx jødiske børnehaver
o.l. - mens de nye terrorister jo mener, at alle vantro bør bombes ad
helvede til, og at så mange som muligt bør rammes af bomberne. Det sidste
kunne du også se i Delhi, bomberne er beregnet til at dræbe så mange
tilfældige som muligt, - det var jo ikke ETA, IRA eller RAFs metode.

---

"Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:43691783$0$78279$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...

>>>>> Den sag er endda ikke så oplagt, som sagen med de unge fromme
>>>>> muslimer,

>>>> Hvorfor er den oplagt?
>>>> Vil du også have indført et tankepoliti?

>>> Hvad er det for noget fis og komme med? Man har deres kommunikation, man
>>> har selvmordsbælter, rejser til fællerne andre steder i Europa, en
>>> farvel-video osv.

Så du mener at man skal straffes hvis man har kontakt til andre mennesker
som bedømmes som potientelle terrorister?
Og hvorfor bliver de ikke sigtet efter overtrædelse af våbenloven? I Danmark
skal du være 18 år for at eje en softballpistol, men det er okay som 16 årig
at eje det du kalder et "selvmordsbælte"?
Og en video? Hvor de gør hvad? Sidder og siger farvel? Hvilken lov bryder de
her? Hvis du i en ophedet brandert kommer til at sige "jeg slår dig ihjel",
burde du så bures inde som morder?

Men nu er disse ting jo fundet hos deres kontakter i Bosnien, ikke i
Danmark, hvad der gør sagen endnu tyndere.

>> Og? De er jo "kun"sigtet efter terrorparagraf 114 som forbyder økonomisk
>> støtte til organiserede terrororganisationer.
>> Lur mig om de ikke ender med at gå fri efter 16.november.

> Det er muligt at medierne overdriver

Muligt? Det er en kioskbasker af dimensioner. Terror og frygten for terror
sælger.

>> Jamen, der vil altid eksistere trusler. Politiet anbefaler heller ikke at
>> kvinder skal blive hjemme inden mørkets frembrud, fordi der i landet
>> findes voldtægtsforbrydere, vel?

> Nej, men der bliver vel heller ikke flere og flere af den slags
> forbrydere, som på Internettet "lover" at komme efter kvinderne.

Er Danmark da blevet truet med et terrorangreb? Italien blev truet for et
stykke tid siden hvis de ikke trak deres soldater hjem fra Irak. Og hvad er
der sket? Intet.
Hvorfor skal vi være bange? Føler du dig f.eks mindre sikker ved at sætte
dig op i et fly nu, end du gjorde i 70'erne eller 80'erne?

>> End dengang i 70'erne hvor PLO, PLFA, IRA, Bader Meinhoof, ETA og, RAF
>> huserede?

> Ja, - kun PLO og PFLP kunne jo finde på at bombe i Danmark, og ville finde
> bombemål, som havde noget med deres fjender at gøre - fx jødiske
> børnehaver o.l. - mens de nye terrorister jo mener, at alle vantro bør
> bombes ad helvede til, og at så mange som muligt bør rammes af bomberne.

Naturligvis findes der ekstremister som er helt uden for pædagogisk
rækkevidde. Men disse er jo oftest ikke organiserede.

Mvh
Zeki

---

"Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in message
news:nkeaf.73119$Fe7.248355@news000.worldonline.dk...
> "Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:43691783$0$78279$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...
>
>>>>>> Den sag er endda ikke så oplagt, som sagen med de unge fromme
>>>>>> muslimer,
>
>>>>> Hvorfor er den oplagt?
>>>>> Vil du også have indført et tankepoliti?
>
>>>> Hvad er det for noget fis og komme med? Man har deres kommunikation,
>>>> man har selvmordsbælter, rejser til fællerne andre steder i Europa, en
>>>> farvel-video osv.
>
> Så du mener at man skal straffes hvis man har kontakt til andre mennesker
> som bedømmes som potientelle terrorister?

Det kommer da fuldstændig an på kvaliteten af kontakten, hvis det er klart
at man er med i planlægningen, så er det da klart at man må skride ind,
ellers hører alting da op.


> Og hvorfor bliver de ikke sigtet efter overtrædelse af våbenloven? I
> Danmark skal du være 18 år for at eje en softballpistol, men det er okay
> som 16 årig at eje det du kalder et "selvmordsbælte"?
> Og en video? Hvor de gør hvad? Sidder og siger farvel? Hvilken lov bryder
> de her? Hvis du i en ophedet brandert kommer til at sige "jeg slår dig
> ihjel", burde du så bures inde som morder?

Nej, og du mener vel også, at hvis du møder en mand i toget, med fingeren på
en udløser, så vil du sige "jamen han har jo ikke trykket endnu, lad os nu
vente, og han er ikke dømt"? Våbenlager, sprængstoffer, møder rundt omkring
i Europa, OG en farvel-video hvor man beder om tilgivelse for selvmordet, -
og du ville stadig sige: "intet at komme efter", formoder jeg?

>
> Men nu er disse ting jo fundet hos deres kontakter i Bosnien, ikke i
> Danmark, hvad der gør sagen endnu tyndere.
>
>>> Og? De er jo "kun"sigtet efter terrorparagraf 114 som forbyder økonomisk
>>> støtte til organiserede terrororganisationer.
>>> Lur mig om de ikke ender med at gå fri efter 16.november.
>
>> Det er muligt at medierne overdriver
>
> Muligt? Det er en kioskbasker af dimensioner. Terror og frygten for terror
> sælger.
>
>>> Jamen, der vil altid eksistere trusler. Politiet anbefaler heller ikke
>>> at kvinder skal blive hjemme inden mørkets frembrud, fordi der i landet
>>> findes voldtægtsforbrydere, vel?
>
>> Nej, men der bliver vel heller ikke flere og flere af den slags
>> forbrydere, som på Internettet "lover" at komme efter kvinderne.
>
> Er Danmark da blevet truet med et terrorangreb? Italien blev truet for et
> stykke tid siden hvis de ikke trak deres soldater hjem fra Irak. Og hvad
> er der sket? Intet.

Ja, vi er blevet truet af al Queda-organisationer, og du skal nok få dine
angreb, bare hav tålmodighed.


> Hvorfor skal vi være bange? Føler du dig f.eks mindre sikker ved at sætte
> dig op i et fly nu, end du gjorde i 70'erne eller 80'erne?

Ja.

>
>>> End dengang i 70'erne hvor PLO, PLFA, IRA, Bader Meinhoof, ETA og, RAF
>>> huserede?
>
>> Ja, - kun PLO og PFLP kunne jo finde på at bombe i Danmark, og ville
>> finde bombemål, som havde noget med deres fjender at gøre - fx jødiske
>> børnehaver o.l. - mens de nye terrorister jo mener, at alle vantro bør
>> bombes ad helvede til, og at så mange som muligt bør rammes af bomberne.
>
> Naturligvis findes der ekstremister som er helt uden for pædagogisk
> rækkevidde. Men disse er jo oftest ikke organiserede.

De er da i høj grad organiserede, selv om de fleste nu arbejder i mindre,
selvstændighe grupper. Hvis du så dokumentaren fra Frankrig kunne du se
hvordan de tænkte og hvordan de havde forbindelse med "pinger" flere steder
i Europa, de kender hinanden.
"Vi" tror ikke det er særlig farligt, fordi vi ikke lægger mærke til de
mange grupper, som bliver optrævlede før der sker noget, sådan er jo
menneskets natur. Gudskelov er der også mange idioter blandt terroristerne,
og de dummer sig ved brug af fx mobiltelefon og på andre måder. Tænker nogen
på de store angreb der var planlagt til julemesser i Frankrig, og som blev
stoppet i sidste øjeblik, - nej sikkert ikke, - der skete jo ikke noget, og
så tæller det slet ikke.

---

"Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:4369bfdb$0$78286$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...

> Nej, og du mener vel også, at hvis du møder en mand i toget, med fingeren
> på en udløser, så vil du sige "jamen han har jo ikke trykket endnu, lad os
> nu vente, og han er ikke dømt"?

Her vil jeg føle mig truet og berettigelsen om selvforsvar vil være til
stede.
Men jeg vil ikke, som dig, dømme de de unge der er sigtet. Det må være op
til domstolen.

> Våbenlager, sprængstoffer, møder rundt omkring i Europa, OG en
> farvel-video hvor man beder om tilgivelse for selvmordet, - og du ville
> stadig sige: "intet at komme efter", formoder jeg?

Ja, det lyder bestemt ikke godt. Men spørgsmålet er hvem der havde med hvem
at gøre og hvem der planlagde hvad samt at retssikkerheden og sigtedes
rettigheder ikke krænkes. Det må som sagt være op til domstolen at afgøre om
der skal falde dom.

>> Er Danmark da blevet truet med et terrorangreb? Italien blev truet for et
>> stykke tid siden hvis de ikke trak deres soldater hjem fra Irak. Og hvad
>> er der sket? Intet.

> Ja, vi er blevet truet af al Queda-organisationer, og du skal nok få dine
> angreb, bare hav tålmodighed.

Sært. Jeg frygter ikke terroren, jeg frygter dem der kan finde på at bruge
frygten for terror til magtmisbrug. Så sent som idag udtaler Fogh at "vi vil
gøre alt hvad vi kan for at give danskerne tryghed" - bare så du ved hvad
der venter. Dvs mere overvågning, kropsvisiteringer, stram kontrol af
borgerne, aflytninger osv. Men du må da gerne klandre mig for at være
modstander af at Danmark kommer ind i en så uheldig glidebane. Også selvom
det blandt andet er DINE rettigheder jeg ønsker at forsvare. Men jeg kan
forstå at du gerne vil give afkald på dem, for at kunne føle dig så tryg som
overhovedet muligt?

>> Hvorfor skal vi være bange? Føler du dig f.eks mindre sikker ved at sætte
>> dig op i et fly nu, end du gjorde i 70'erne eller 80'erne?

> Ja.

Og er det så nu jeg skal poste det antal af flykapringer som fandt sted fra
68-90, sammenlignet med tiden efter?

>> Naturligvis findes der ekstremister som er helt uden for pædagogisk
>> rækkevidde. Men disse er jo oftest ikke organiserede.

> De er da i høj grad organiserede, selv om de fleste nu arbejder i mindre,
> selvstændighe grupper.

Hvilken terrororganisation tilhører de sigtede i Danmark så? Hvem er deres
øverste chef, tror du? Bøhmanden Osama?
Eller hvad med dem fra terrorbomben i London 7.juli? Hvilken organisation
tilhørte de?

Mvh
Zeki

---

"Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in
news:mdqaf.73163$Fe7.248414@news000.worldonline.dk:

> Ja, det lyder bestemt ikke godt. Men spørgsmålet er hvem der havde med
> hvem at gøre og hvem der planlagde hvad samt at retssikkerheden og
> sigtedes rettigheder ikke krænkes. Det må som sagt være op til
> domstolen at afgøre om der skal falde dom.

Er det ikke gået op for dig, at denne nyhedsgruppe ikke har dømmende magt?
Har man lov at fremføre sine holdninger, uden at blive påduttet en dommer-
rolle? Taaak.

--
Med venlig hilsen
GB

---

"GB" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9703BD34C7154Youremail@62.243.74.162...
> "Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in
> news:mdqaf.73163$Fe7.248414@news000.worldonline.dk:
>
>> Ja, det lyder bestemt ikke godt. Men spørgsmålet er hvem der havde med
>> hvem at gøre og hvem der planlagde hvad samt at retssikkerheden og
>> sigtedes rettigheder ikke krænkes. Det må som sagt være op til
>> domstolen at afgøre om der skal falde dom.
>
> Er det ikke gået op for dig, at denne nyhedsgruppe ikke har dømmende magt?
> Har man lov at fremføre sine holdninger, uden at blive påduttet en dommer-
> rolle? Taaak.

Netop.

---

"GB" <nospam@nospam.invalid> skrev i en meddelelse
news:Xns9703BD34C7154Youremail@62.243.74.162...
> "Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in
> news:mdqaf.73163$Fe7.248414@news000.worldonline.dk:
>
> > Ja, det lyder bestemt ikke godt. Men spørgsmålet er hvem der havde med
> > hvem at gøre og hvem der planlagde hvad samt at retssikkerheden og
> > sigtedes rettigheder ikke krænkes. Det må som sagt være op til
> > domstolen at afgøre om der skal falde dom.
>
> Er det ikke gået op for dig, at denne nyhedsgruppe ikke har dømmende magt?
> Har man lov at fremføre sine holdninger, uden at blive påduttet en dommer-
> rolle? Taaak.
>
> --
> Med venlig hilsen
> GB


Javel.
Men det gør det ikke mindre modbydeligt, at se hvor hurtig det borgerlige
danmark, eller et udsnit heraf, er til at dømme uden at have det ringeste
grundlag herfor.
Jo, i H.C.Andersenåret bliver een fjer stadig til 5 høns.

MVH
Egon

---

"Egon Stich" <stich-foto@stich-foto.dk> wrote in
news:lewaf.480$6f2.16@news.get2net.dk:

> Men det gør det ikke mindre modbydeligt, at se hvor hurtig det
> borgerlige danmark, eller et udsnit heraf, er til at dømme uden at
> have det ringeste grundlag herfor.

Uden at have det ringeste grundlag? Sig mig - er du en af de ganske få
mennesker i Danmark, som hverken har radio eller TV?

--
Med venlig hilsen
GB

---

"GB" <nospam@nospam.invalid> skrev i en meddelelse
news:Xns97041A4E894EYouremail@62.243.74.162...
> "Egon Stich" <stich-foto@stich-foto.dk> wrote in
> news:lewaf.480$6f2.16@news.get2net.dk:
>
> > Men det gør det ikke mindre modbydeligt, at se hvor hurtig det
> > borgerlige danmark, eller et udsnit heraf, er til at dømme uden at
> > have det ringeste grundlag herfor.
>
> Uden at have det ringeste grundlag? Sig mig - er du en af de ganske få
> mennesker i Danmark, som hverken har radio eller TV?
>
> --
> Med venlig hilsen
> GB

Hvad journalisterne i deres sensationshunger måtte finde på at skrive, kan
jo være morsomt at læse.
Og hvem ved, måske sandt?
Alligevel foretrækker jeg at afvente hvad der sker i en eventuel retssag,
før jeg vil dømme nogen.
Man har før set, hvorledes mennesker er blevet frikendt, på trods af
pressehetz.

MVH
Egon

---

"Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in message
news:mdqaf.73163$Fe7.248414@news000.worldonline.dk...
> "Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:4369bfdb$0$78286$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...
>
>> Nej, og du mener vel også, at hvis du møder en mand i toget, med fingeren
>> på en udløser, så vil du sige "jamen han har jo ikke trykket endnu, lad
>> os nu vente, og han er ikke dømt"?
>
> Her vil jeg føle mig truet og berettigelsen om selvforsvar vil være til
> stede.
> Men jeg vil ikke, som dig, dømme de de unge der er sigtet. Det må være op
> til domstolen.

Vi her er IKKE dommere, derfor har vi ret til at debattere hvem vi tror er
skyldige og hvem ikke, - jeg har intet som helst
behov for at "dømme" folk som er uskyldige, jeg taler kun om at der ER
tilfælde hvor indicierne er gode nok for mig, men ikke gode nok for en
dommer, og sådan skal det også være.

>
>> Våbenlager, sprængstoffer, møder rundt omkring i Europa, OG en
>> farvel-video hvor man beder om tilgivelse for selvmordet, - og du ville
>> stadig sige: "intet at komme efter", formoder jeg?
>
> Ja, det lyder bestemt ikke godt. Men spørgsmålet er hvem der havde med
> hvem at gøre og hvem der planlagde hvad samt at retssikkerheden og
> sigtedes rettigheder ikke krænkes. Det må som sagt være op til domstolen
> at afgøre om der skal falde dom.

Naturligvis, hvad ellers.


>
>>> Er Danmark da blevet truet med et terrorangreb? Italien blev truet for
>>> et stykke tid siden hvis de ikke trak deres soldater hjem fra Irak. Og
>>> hvad er der sket? Intet.
>
>> Ja, vi er blevet truet af al Queda-organisationer, og du skal nok få dine
>> angreb, bare hav tålmodighed.
>
> Sært. Jeg frygter ikke terroren, jeg frygter dem der kan finde på at bruge
> frygten for terror til magtmisbrug. Så sent som idag udtaler Fogh at "vi
> vil gøre alt hvad vi kan for at give danskerne tryghed" - bare så du ved
> hvad der venter. Dvs mere overvågning, kropsvisiteringer, stram kontrol af
> borgerne, aflytninger osv. Men du må da gerne klandre mig for at være
> modstander af at Danmark kommer ind i en så uheldig glidebane. Også selvom
> det blandt andet er DINE rettigheder jeg ønsker at forsvare. Men jeg kan
> forstå at du gerne vil give afkald på dem, for at kunne føle dig så tryg
> som overhovedet muligt?

Overhovedet ikke, jeg er villig til at leve med en risiko. Men jeg har svært
ved at se en Per Stig Møller, eller de andre danske politikere ønske at lege
"Stasi" for at "få mere magt", hvordan mere magt? At udvidede rettigheder
for PET og andre kunne bruges under et totalitært styre, er helt korrekt,
men mon ikke man i en sådan situation alligevel ville gøre hvad der passede
en?

>>> Hvorfor skal vi være bange? Føler du dig f.eks mindre sikker ved at
>>> sætte dig op i et fly nu, end du gjorde i 70'erne eller 80'erne?
>
>> Ja.
>
> Og er det så nu jeg skal poste det antal af flykapringer som fandt sted
> fra 68-90, sammenlignet med tiden efter?

Men vi ved at mange mange flere i dag er interesserede i at forårsage
massedød, om der så er færre fatale flybombninger siden 1990 er jeg da
heller ikke sikker på?

>
>>> Naturligvis findes der ekstremister som er helt uden for pædagogisk
>>> rækkevidde. Men disse er jo oftest ikke organiserede.
>
>> De er da i høj grad organiserede, selv om de fleste nu arbejder i mindre,
>> selvstændighe grupper.
>
> Hvilken terrororganisation tilhører de sigtede i Danmark så? Hvem er deres
> øverste chef, tror du? Bøhmanden Osama?
> Eller hvad med dem fra terrorbomben i London 7.juli? Hvilken organisation
> tilhørte de?

De er alle medlemmer af grupperne af modstandere af Vesten, de læser samme
litteratur, de hører samme prædikener, de ser samme videoer, og de er blevet
opfordret til at starte egne grupper. Så de VED og de føler sig som
medlemmer af en verdensomspændende kamp for islam og ummaen, som fx bin
Laden fremfører det. Og bin Laden ER jo stadig super populær blandt de 1,3
milliarder muslimer, selv om heldigvis færre i år elsker manden end for fem
år siden, men det drejer sig stadig om hundreder af millioner af muslimer
som synes det er helt fint at vantro bliver bombet til helvede.


Hvis du gider læse bin Laden "oprob", så er her hans fulde tekst da han
erklærede krig:
(bemærk at problemet med islam jo altid er, at man kan finde vidunderlige
fromme originale kilder som forlanger at "vi" skal udryddes, - og ingen
muslim kan tage afstand til dem, fordi de kommer direkte fra Profeten)


Osama bin Laden's War Against America (Full FATWA Text)


9 Years later after the "Declaration of War against the Americans
Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places."

Osama bin Laden's "Declaration of War" was first published in Al Quds
Al Arabi, a London-based newspaper. The Fatwa is formally entitled
"Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the
Two Holy Places."

TEXT OF FATWA:

Praise be to Allah, we seek His help and ask for his pardon. we take
refuge in Allah from our wrongs and bad deeds. Who ever been guided by
Allah will not be misled, and who ever has been misled, he will never
be guided. I bear witness that there is no God except Allah-no
associates with Him- and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and
messenger.

{O you who believe! be careful of -your duty to- Allah with the proper
care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslim}
(Imraan; 3:102), {O people be careful of -your duty to- your Lord, Who
created you from a single being and created its mate of the same
-kind- and spread from these two, many men and women; and be careful
of -your duty to- Allah , by whom you demand one of another -your
rights-, and (be careful) to the ties of kinship; surely Allah ever
watches over you} (An-Nisa; 4:1), {O you who believe! be careful- of
your duty- to Allah and speak the right word; He will put your deeds
into a right state for you, and forgive you your faults; and who ever
obeys Allah and his Apostle, he indeed achieve a mighty success}
(Al-Ahzab; 33:70-71).

Praise be to Allah, reporting the saying of the prophet Shu'aib: {I
desire nothing but reform so far as I am able, and with non but Allah
is the direction of my affair to the right and successful path; on him
do I rely and to him do I turn} (Hud; 11:88).

Praise be to Allah, saying: {You are the best of the nations raised up
for -the benefit of- men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the
wrong and believe in Allah} (Aal-Imraan; 3:110). Allah's blessing and
salutations on His slave and messenger who said: (The people are close
to an all encompassing punishment from Allah if they see the oppressor
and fail to restrain him.)

It should not be hidden from you that the people of Islam had suffered
from aggression, iniquity and injustice imposed on them by the
Zionist-Crusaders alliance and their collaborators; to the extent that
the Muslims blood became the cheapest and their wealth as loot in the
hands of the enemies. Their blood was spilled in Palestine and Iraq.
The horrifying pictures of the massacre of Qana, in Lebanon are still
fresh in our memory. Massacres in Tajakestan, Burma, Cashmere, Assam,
Philippine, Fatani, Ogadin, Somalia, Erithria, Chechnia and in
Bosnia-Herzegovina took place, massacres that send shivers in the body
and shake the conscience. All of this and the world watch and hear,
and not only didn't respond to these atrocities, but also with a clear
conspiracy between the USA and its' allies and under the cover of the
iniquitous United Nations, the dispossessed people were even prevented
from obtaining arms to defend themselves.

The people of Islam awakened and realised that they are the main
target for the aggression of the Zionist-Crusaders alliance. All false
claims and propaganda about "Human Rights" were hammered down and
exposed by the massacres that took place against the Muslims in every
part of the world.

The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the
Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND
SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy
Places -the foundation of the house of Islam, the place of the
revelation, the source of the message and the place of the noble
Ka'ba, the Qiblah of all Muslims- by the armies of the American
Crusaders and their allies. (We bemoan this and can only say: "No
power and power acquiring except through Allah").

Under the present circumstances, and under the banner of the blessed
awakening which is sweeping the world in general and the Islamic world
in particular, I meet with you today. And after a long absence,
imposed on the scholars (Ulama) and callers (Da'ees) of Islam by the
iniquitous crusaders movement under the leadership of the USA; who
fears that they, the scholars and callers of Islam, will instigate the
Ummah of Islam against its' enemies as their ancestor scholars-may
Allah be pleased with them- like Ibn Taymiyyah and Al'iz Ibn
Abdes-Salaam did. And therefore the Zionist-Crusader alliance resorted
to killing and arresting the truthful Ulama and the working Da'ees (We
are not praising or sanctifying them; Allah sanctify whom He pleased).
They killed the Mujahid Sheikh Abdullah Azzaam, and they arrested the
Mujahid Sheikh Ahmad Yaseen and the Mujahid Sheikh Omar Abdur Rahman
(in America).

By orders from the USA they also arrested a large number of scholars,
Da'ees and young people - in the land of the two Holy Places- among
them the prominent Sheikh Salman Al-Oud'a and Sheikh Safar Al-Hawali
and their brothers; (We bemoan this and can only say: "No power and
power acquiring except through Allah"). We, myself and my group, have
suffered some of this injustice ourselves; we have been prevented from
addressing the Muslims. We have been pursued in Pakistan, Sudan and
Afghanistan, hence this long absence on my part. But by the Grace of
Allah, a safe base is now available in the high Hindukush mountains in
Khurasan ; where--by the Grace of Allah-the largest infidel military
force of the world was destroyed. And the myth of the super power was
withered in front of the Mujahideen cries of Allahu Akbar (God is
greater). Today we work from the same mountains to lift the iniquity
that had been imposed on the Ummah by the Zionist-Crusader alliance,
particularly after they have occupied the blessed land around
Jerusalem, route of the journey of the Prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND
SALUTATIONS ON HIM) and the land of the two Holy Places. We ask Allah
to bestow us with victory, He is our Patron and He is the Most
Capable.

From here, today we begin the work, talking and discussing the ways of
correcting what had happened to the Islamic world in general, and the
Land of the two Holy Places in particular. We wish to study the means
that we could follow to return the situation to its' normal path. And
to return to the people their own rights, particularly after the large
damages and the great aggression on the life and the religion of the
people. An injustice that had affected every section and group of the
people; the civilians, military and security men, government officials
and merchants, the young and the old people as well as schools and
university students. Hundred of thousands of the unemployed graduates,
who became the widest section of the society, were also affected.

Injustice had affected the people of the industry and agriculture. It
affected the people of the rural and urban areas. And almost every
body complain about something. The situation at the land of the two
Holy places became like a huge volcano at the verge of eruption that
would destroy the Kufr and the corruption and its' sources. The
explosion at Riyadh and Al-Khobar is a warning of this volcanic
eruption emerging as a result of the sever oppression, suffering,
excessive iniquity, humiliation and poverty.

People are fully concerned about their every day livings; every body
talks about the deterioration of the economy, inflation, ever
increasing debts and jails full of prisoners. Government employees
with limited income talk about debts of ten thousands and hundred
thousands of Saudi Riyals . They complain that the value of the Riyal
is greatly and continuously deteriorating among most of the main
currencies. Great merchants and contractors speak about hundreds and
thousands of million Riyals owed to them by the government. More than
three hundred forty billions of Riyal owed by the government to the
people in addition to the daily accumulated interest, let alone the
foreign debt. People wonder whether we are the largest oil exporting
country?! They even believe that this situation is a curse put on them
by Allah for not objecting to the oppressive and illegitimate
behaviour and measures of the ruling regime: Ignoring the divine
Shari'ah law; depriving people of their legitimate rights; allowing
the American to occupy the land of the two Holy Places; imprisonment,
unjustly, of the sincere scholars. The honourable Ulamah and scholars
as well as merchants, economists and eminent people of the country
were all alerted by this disastrous situation.

Quick efforts were made by each group to contain and to correct the
situation. All agreed that the country is heading toward a great
catastrophe, the depth of which is not known except by Allah. One big
merchant commented : '' the king is leading the state into 'sixty-six'
folded disaster'', (We bemoan this and can only say: "No power and
power acquiring except through Allah"). Numerous princes share with
the people their feelings, privately expressing their concerns and
objecting to the corruption, repression and the intimidation taking
place in the country. But the competition between influential princes
for personal gains and interest had destroyed the country. Through its
course of actions the regime has torn off its legitimacy: # (1)
Suspension of the Islamic Shari'ah law and exchanging it with man made
civil law. The regime entered into a bloody confrontation with the
truthful Ulamah and the righteous youths (we sanctify nobody; Allah
sanctify Whom He pleaseth). # (2) The inability of the regime to
protect the country, and allowing the enemy of the Ummah - the
American crusader forces- to occupy the land for the longest of years.
The crusader forces became the main cause of our disastrous condition,
particularly in the economical aspect of it due to the unjustified
heavy spending on these forces. As a result of the policy imposed on
the country, especially in the field of oil industry where production
is restricted or expanded and prices are fixed to suit the American
economy ignoring the economy of the country. Expensive deals were
imposed on the country to purchase arms. People asking what is the
justification for the very existence of the regime then?

Quick efforts were made by individuals and by different groups of the
society to contain the situation and to prevent the danger. They
advised the government both privately and openly; they send letters
and poems, reports after reports, reminders after reminders, they
explored every avenue and enlist every influential man in their
movement of reform and correction. They wrote with style of passion,
diplomacy and wisdom asking for corrective measures and repentance
from the "great wrong doings and corruption " that had engulfed even
the basic principles of the religion and the legitimate rights of the
people.

But -to our deepest regret- the regime refused to listen to the people
accusing them of being ridiculous and imbecile. The matter got worse
as previous wrong doings were followed by mischief's of greater
magnitudes. All of this taking place in the land of the two Holy
Places! It is no longer possible to be quiet. It is not acceptable to
give a blind eye to this matter.

As the extent of these infringements reached the highest of levels and
turned into demolishing forces threatening the very existence of the
Islamic principles, a group of scholars-who can take no more-
supported by hundreds of retired officials, merchants, prominent and
educated people wrote to the King asking for implementation of the
corrective measures. In 1411 A.H. (May 1991), at the time of the gulf
war, a letter, the famous letter of Shawwaal, with over four hundred
signatures was send to the king demanding the lift of oppression and
the implementation of corrective actions. The king humiliated those
people and choose to ignore the content of their letter; and the very
bad situation of the country became even worse.

People, however, tried again and send more letters and petitions. One
particular report, the glorious Memorandum Of Advice, was handed over
to the king on Muharram, 1413 A.H (July 1992), which tackled the
problem pointed out the illness and prescribed the medicine in an
original, righteous and scientific style. It described the gaps and
the shortcoming in the philosophy of the regime and suggested the
required course of action and remedy. The report gave a description
of: # The intimidation and harassment suffered by the leaders of the
society, the scholars, heads of tribes, merchants, academic teachers
and other eminent individuals; # The situation of the law within the
country and the arbitrary declaration of what is Halal and Haram
(lawful and unlawful) regardless of the Shari'ah as instituted by
Allah; # The state of the press and the media which became a tool of
truth-hiding and misinformation; the media carried out the plan of the
enemy of idolising cult of certain personalities and spreading
scandals among the believers to repel the people away from their
religion, as Allah, the Exalted said: {surely- as for- those who love
that scandal should circulate between the believers, they shall have a
grievous chastisement in this world and in the here after} (An-Noor,
24:19). # Abuse and confiscation of human rights; # The financial and
the economical situation of the country and the frightening future in
the view of the enormous amount of debts and interest owed by the
government; this is at the time when the wealth of the Ummah being
wasted to satisfy personal desires of certain individuals!! while
imposing more custom duties and taxes on the nation. (the prophet said
about the woman who committed adultery: "She repented in such a way
sufficient to bring forgiveness to a custom collector!!")., # The
miserable situation of the social services and infra-structure
especially the water service and supply , the basic requirement of
life., # The state of the ill-trained and ill-prepared army and the
impotence of its commander in chief despite the incredible amount of
money that has been spent on the army. The gulf war clearly exposed
the situation., # Shari'a law was suspended and man made law was used
instead., # And as far as the foreign policy is concerned the report
exposed not only how this policy has disregarded the Islamic issues
and ignored the Muslims, but also how help and support were provided
to the enemy against the Muslims; the cases of Gaza-Ariha and the
communist in the south of Yemen are still fresh in the memory, and
more can be said.

As stated by the people of knowledge, it is not a secret that to use
man made law instead of the Shari'a and to support the infidels
against the Muslims is one of the ten "voiders" that would strip a
person from his Islamic status (turn a Muslim into a Mushrik, non
believer status). The All Mighty said: {and whoever did not judge by
what Allah revealed, those are the unbelievers} (Al-Ma'ida; 5:44), and
{but no! by your Lord! they do not believe (in reality) until they
make you a judge of that which has become a matter of disagreement
among them, and then do not find the slightest misgiving in their
hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission}
(An-Nissa; 4:65).

In spite of the fact that the report was written with soft words and
very diplomatic style, reminding of Allah, giving truthful sincere
advice, and despite of the importance of advice in Islam - being
absolutely essential for those in charge of the people- and the large
number who signed this document as well as their supporters, all of
that was not an intercession for the Memorandum . Its' content was
rejected and those who signed it and their sympathisers were
ridiculed, prevented from travel, punished and even jailed.

Therefore it is very clear that the advocates of correction and reform
movement were very keen on using peaceful means in order to protect
the unity of the country and to prevent blood shed. Why is it then the
regime closed all peaceful routes and pushed the people toward armed
actions?!! which is the only choice left for them to implement
righteousness and justice. To whose benefit does prince Sultan and
prince Nayeff push the country into a civil war that will destroy
everything? and why consulting those who ignites internal feuds,
playing the people against each other and instigate the policemen, the
sons of the nation, to abort the reform movement. While leaving in
peace and security such traitors who implement the policy of the enemy
in order to bleed the financial and the human resources of the Ummah,
and leaving the main enemy in the area-the American Zionist alliance
enjoy peace and security?!

The advisor (Zaki Badr, the Egyptian ex-minister of the interior) to
prince Nayeff -minister of interior- was not acceptable even to his
own country; he was sacked from his position there due to the filthy
attitude and the aggression he exercised on his own people, yet he was
warmly welcomed by prince Nayeff to assist in sins and aggressions. He
unjustly filled the prisons with the best sons of this Ummah and
caused miseries to their mothers. Does the regime want to play the
civilians against their military personnel and vice versa, like what
had happened in some of the neighbouring countries?!! No doubts this
is the policy of the American-Israeli alliance as they are the first
to benefit from this situation.

But with the grace of Allah, the majority of the nation, both
civilians and military individuals are aware of the wicked plan. They
refused to be played against each others and to be used by the regime
as a tool to carry out the policy of the American-Israeli alliance
through their agent in our country: the Saudi regime.

Therefore every one agreed that the situation can not be rectified
(the shadow cannot be straighten when its' source, the rod, is not
straight either) unless the root of the problem is tackled. Hence it
is essential to hit the main enemy who divided the Ummah into small
and little countries and pushed it, for the last few decades, into a
state of confusion. The Zionist-Crusader alliance moves quickly to
contain and abort any "corrective movement" appearing in the Islamic
countries. Different means and methods are used to achieve their
target; on occasion the "movement" is dragged into an armed struggle
at a predetermined unfavourable time and place. Sometime officials
from the Ministry of Interior, who are also graduates of the colleges
of the Shari'ah, are leashed out to mislead and confuse the nation and
the Ummah (by wrong Fatwas) and to circulate false information about
the movement. At other occasions some righteous people were tricked
into a war of words against the Ulama and the leaders of the movement,
wasting the energy of the nation in discussing minor issues and
ignoring the main one that is the unification of the people under the
divine law of Allah.

In the shadow of these discussions and arguments truthfulness is
covered by the falsehood, and personal feuds and partisanship created
among the people increasing the division and the weakness of the
Ummah; priorities of the Islamic work are lost while the blasphemy and
polytheism continue its grip and control over the Ummah. We should be
alert to these atrocious plans carried out by the Ministry of
Interior. The right answer is to follow what have been decided by the
people of knowledge, as was said by Ibn Taymiyyah (Allah's mercy upon
him): "people of Islam should join forces and support each other to
get rid of the main "Kufr" who is controlling the countries of the
Islamic world, even to bear the lesser damage to get rid of the major
one, that is the great Kufr".

If there are more than one duty to be carried out, then the most
important one should receive priority. Clearly after Belief (Imaan)
there is no more important duty than pushing the American enemy out of
the holy land. No other priority, except Belief, could be considered
before it; the people of knowledge, Ibn Taymiyyah, stated: "to fight
in defence of religion and Belief is a collective duty; there is no
other duty after Belief than fighting the enemy who is corrupting the
life and the religion. There is no preconditions for this duty and the
enemy should be fought with one best abilities. (ref: supplement of
Fatawa). If it is not possible to push back the enemy except by the
collective movement of the Muslim people, then there is a duty on the
Muslims to ignore the minor differences among themselves; the ill
effect of ignoring these differences, at a given period of time, is
much less than the ill effect of the occupation of the Muslims' land
by the main Kufr. Ibn Taymiyyah had explained this issue and
emphasised the importance of dealing with the major threat on the
expense of the minor one. He described the situation of the Muslims
and the Mujahideen and stated that even the military personnel who are
not practising Islam are not exempted from the duty of Jihad against
the enemy.

Ibn Taymiyyah , after mentioning the Moguls (Tatar) and their
behaviour in changing the law of Allah, stated that: the ultimate aim
of pleasing Allah, raising His word, instituting His religion and
obeying His messenger (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is to
fight the enemy, in every aspects and in a complete manner; if the
danger to the religion from not fighting is greater than that of
fighting, then it is a duty to fight them even if the intention of
some of the fighter is not pure i.e . fighting for the sake of
leadership (personal gain) or if they do not observe some of the rules
and commandments of Islam. To repel the greatest of the two dangers on
the expense of the lesser one is an Islamic principle which should be
observed. It was the tradition of the people of the Sunnah
(Ahlul-Sunnah) to join and invade- fight- with the righteous and non
righteous men. Allah may support this religion by righteous and non
righteous people as told by the prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND
SALUTATIONS ON HIM). If it is not possible to fight except with the
help of non righteous military personnel and commanders, then there
are two possibilities: either fighting will be ignored and the others,
who are the great danger to this life and religion, will take control;
or to fight with the help of non righteous rulers and therefore
repelling the greatest of the two dangers and implementing most,
though not all, of the Islamic laws. The latter option is the right
duty to be carried out in these circumstances and in many other
similar situation. In fact many of the fights and conquests that took
place after the time of Rashidoon, the guided Imams, were of this
type. (majmoo' al Fatawa, 26/506).

No one, not even a blind or a deaf person , can deny the presence of
the widely spread mischief's or the prevalence of the great sins that
had reached the grievous iniquity of polytheism and to share with
Allah in His sole right of sovereignty and making of the law. The All
Mighty stated: {And when Luqman said to his son while he admonish him:
O my son! do not associate ought with Allah; most surely polytheism is
a grievous iniquity} (Luqman; 31:13). Man fabricated laws were put
forward permitting what has been forbidden by Allah such as usury
(Riba) and other matters. Banks dealing in usury are competing, for
lands, with the two Holy Places and declaring war against Allah by
disobeying His order {Allah has allowed trading and forbidden usury}
(Baqarah; 2:275). All this taking place at the vicinity of the Holy
Mosque in the Holy Land! Allah (SWT) stated in His Holy Book a unique
promise (that had not been promised to any other sinner) to the
Muslims who deals in usury: {O you who believe! Be careful of your
duty to Allah and relinquish what remains (due) from usury, if you are
believers * But if you do (it) not, then be appraised of WAR from
Allah and His Apostle} (Baqarah; 2:278-279). This is for the "Muslim"
who deals in usury (believing that it is a sin), what is it then to
the person who make himself a partner and equal to Allah, legalising
(usury and other sins) what has been forbidden by Allah. Despite of
all of the above we see the government misled and dragged some of the
righteous Ulamah and Da'ees away from the issue of objecting to the
greatest of sins and Kufr. (We bemoan this and can only say: "No power
and power acquiring except through Allah").

Under such circumstances, to push the enemy-the greatest Kufr- out of
the country is a prime duty. No other duty after Belief is more
important than the duty of had . Utmost effort should be made to
prepare and instigate the Ummah against the enemy, the
American-Israeli alliance- occupying the country of the two Holy
Places and the route of the Apostle (Allah's Blessings and Salutations
may be on him) to the Furthest Mosque (Al-Aqsa Mosque). Also to remind
the Muslims not to be engaged in an internal war among themselves, as
that will have grieve consequences namely:

1-consumption of the Muslims human resources as most casualties and
fatalities will be among the Muslims people.

2-Exhaustion of the economic and financial resources.

3-Destruction of the country infrastructures

4-Dissociation of the society

5-Destruction of the oil industries. The presence of the USA Crusader
military forces on land, sea and air of the states of the Islamic Gulf
is the greatest danger threatening the largest oil reserve in the
world. The existence of these forces in the area will provoke the
people of the country and induces aggression on their religion,
feelings and prides and push them to take up armed struggle against
the invaders occupying the land; therefore spread of the fighting in
the region will expose the oil wealth to the danger of being burned
up. The economic interests of the States of the Gulf and the land of
the two Holy Places will be damaged and even a greater damage will be
caused to the economy of the world. I would like here to alert my
brothers, the Mujahideen, the sons of the nation, to protect this
(oil) wealth and not to include it in the battle as it is a great
Islamic wealth and a large economical power essential for the soon to
be established Islamic state, by Allah's Permission and Grace. We also
warn the aggressors, the USA, against burning this Islamic wealth (a
crime which they may commit in order to prevent it, at the end of the
war, from falling in the hands of its legitimate owners and to cause
economic damages to the competitors of the USA in Europe or the Far
East, particularly Japan which is the major consumer of the oil of the
region).

6-Division of the land of the two Holy Places, and annexing of the
northerly part of it by Israel. Dividing the land of the two Holy
Places is an essential demand of the Zionist-Crusader alliance. The
existence of such a large country with its huge resources under the
leadership of the forthcoming Islamic State, by Allah's Grace,
represent a serious danger to the very existence of the Zionist state
in Palestine. The Nobel Ka'ba, -the Qiblah of all Muslims- makes the
land of the two Holy Places a symbol for the unity of the Islamic
world. Moreover, the presence of the world largest oil reserve makes
the land of the two Holy Places an important economical power in the
Islamic world. The sons of the two Holy Places are directly related to
the life style (Seerah) of their forefathers, the companions, may
Allah be pleased with them. They consider the Seerah of their
forefathers as a source and an example for re-establishing the
greatness of this Ummah and to raise the word of Allah again.
Furthermore the presence of a population of fighters in the south of
Yemen, fighting in the cause of Allah, is a strategic threat to the
Zionist-Crusader alliance in the area. The Prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING
AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) said: (around twelve thousands will emerge
from Aden/Abian helping -the cause of- Allah and His messenger, they
are the best, in the time, between me and them) narrated by Ahmad with
a correct trustworthy reference.

7-An internal war is a great mistake, no matter what reasons are there
for it. the presence of the occupier-the USA- forces will control the
outcome of the battle for the benefit of the international Kufr.

I address now my brothers of the security and military forces and the
national guards may Allah preserve you hoard for Islam and the Muslims
people:

O you protectors of unity and guardians of Faith; O you descendent of
the ancestors who carried the light (torch) of guidance and spread it
all over the world. O you grandsons of Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqaas ,
Almothanna Ibn Haritha Ash-Shaybani , Alga'ga' Ibn Amroo Al-Tameemi
and those pious companions who fought Jihad alongside them; you
competed to join the army and the guard forces with the intention to
carry out Jihad in the cause of Allah -raising His word- and to defend
the faith of Islam and the land of the two Holy Places against the
invaders and the occupying forces. That is the ultimate level of
believing in this religion "Deen". But the regime had reversed these
principles and their understanding, humiliating the Ummah and
disobeying Allah. Half a century ago the rulers promised the Ummah to
regain the first Qiblah, but fifty years later new generation arrived
and the promises have been changed; Al-Aqsa Mosque handed over to the
Zionists and the wounds of the Ummah still bleeding there. At the time
when the Ummah has not regained the first Qiblah and the rout of the
journey of the Prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on
him), and despite of all of the above, the Saudi regime had stunt the
Ummah in the remaining sanctities, the Holy city of Makka and the
mosque of the Prophet (Al-Masjid An-Nabawy), by calling the Christians
army to defend the regime. The crusaders were permitted to be in the
land of the two Holy Places. Not surprisingly though, the King himself
wore the cross on his chest. The country was widely opened from the
north-to- the south and from east-to-the west for the crusaders. The
land was filled with the military bases of the USA and the allies. The
regime became unable to keep control without the help of these bases.
You know more than any body else about the size, intention and the
danger of the presence of the USA military bases in the area. The
regime betrayed the Ummah and joined the Kufr, assisting and helping
them against the Muslims. It is well known that this is one of the ten
"voiders" of Islam, deeds of de-Islamisation. By opening the Arab
peninsula to the crusaders the regime disobeyed and acted against what
has been enjoined by the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and
Salutations may be on him), while he was at the bed of his death:
(Expel the polytheists out of the Arab Peninsula); (narrated by
Al-Bukhari) and: (If I survive, Allah willing, I'll expel the Jews and
the Christians out of the Arab Peninsula); saheeh Aljame' As-Sagheer.

It is out of date and no longer acceptable to claim that the presence
of the crusaders is necessity and only a temporary measures to protect
the land of the two Holy Places. Especially when the civil and the
military infrastructures of Iraq were savagely destroyed showing the
depth of the Zionist-Crusaders hatred to the Muslims and their
children, and the rejection of the idea of replacing the crusaders
forces by an Islamic force composed of the sons of the country and
other Muslim people. moreover the foundations of the claim and the
claim it self were demolished and wiped out by the sequence of
speeches given by the leaders of the Kuffar in America. The latest of
these speeches was the one given by William Perry, the Defense
Secretary, after the explosion in Al-Khobar saying that: the presence
of the American solders there is to protect the interest of the USA.
The imprisoned Sheikh Safar Al-Hawali, may Allah hasten his release,
wrote a book of seventy pages; in it he presented evidence and proof
that the presence of the Americans in the Arab Peninsula is a
pre-planed military occupation. The regime want to deceive the Muslim
people in the same manner when the Palestinian fighters, Mujahideen,
were deceived causing the loss of Al-Aqsa Mosque. In 1304 A.H (1936
AD) the awakened Muslims nation of Palestine started their great
struggle, Jihad, against the British occupying forces. Britain was
impotent to stop the Mujahideen and their Jihad, but their devil
inspired that there is no way to stop the armed struggle in Palestine
unless through their agent King Abdul Azeez, who managed to deceives
the Mujahideen. King Abdul Azeez carried out his duty to his British
masters. He sent his two sons to meet the Mujahideen leaders and to
inform them that King Abdul Azeez would guarantee the promises made by
the British government in leaving the area and responding positively
to the demands of the Mujahideen if the latter stop their Jihad. And
so King Abdul Azeez caused the loss of the first Qiblah of the Muslims
people. The King joined the crusaders against the Muslims and instead
of supporting the Mujahideen in the cause of Allah, to liberate the
Al-Aqsa Mosque, he disappointed and humiliated them.

Today, his son, king Fahd, trying to deceive the Muslims for the
second time so as to loose what is left of the sanctities. When the
Islamic world resented the arrival of the crusader forces to the land
of the two Holy Places, the king told lies to the Ulamah (who issued
Fatwas about the arrival of the Americans) and to the gathering of the
Islamic leaders at the conference of Rabitah which was held in the
Holy City of Makka. The King said that: "the issue is simple, the
American and the alliance forces will leave the area in few months".
Today it is seven years since their arrival and the regime is not able
to move them out of the country. The regime made no confession about
its inability and carried on lying to the people claiming that the
American will leave. But never-never again ; a believer will not be
bitten twice from the same hole or snake! Happy is the one who takes
note of the sad experience of the others!!

Instead of motivating the army, the guards, and the security men to
oppose the occupiers, the regime used these men to protect the
invaders, and further deepening the humiliation and the betrayal. (We
bemoan this and can only say: "No power and power acquiring except
through Allah"). To those little group of men within the army, police
and security forces, who have been tricked and pressured by the regime
to attack the Muslims and spill their blood, we would like to remind
them of the narration: (I promise war against those who take my
friends as their enemy) narrated by Al--Bukhari. And his saying
(Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) saying of: ( In the
day of judgement a man comes holding another and complaining being
slain by him. Allah, blessed be His Names, asks: Why did you slay
him?! The accused replies: I did so that all exaltation may be Yours.
Allah, blessed be His Names, says: All exaltation is indeed mine!
Another man comes holding a fourth with a similar complaint. Allah,
blessed be His Names, asks: Why did you kill him?! The accused
replies: I did so that exaltation may be for Mr. X! Allah, blessed be
His Names, says: exaltation is mine, not for Mr. X, carry all the
slain man's sins (and proceed to the Hell fire)!). In another wording
of An-Nasa'i: "The accused says: for strengthening the rule or kingdom
of Mr. X"

Today your brothers and sons, the sons of the two Holy Places, have
started their Jihad in the cause of Allah, to expel the occupying
enemy from of the country of the two Holy places. And there is no
doubt you would like to carry out this mission too, in order to
re-establish the greatness of this Ummah and to liberate its' occupied
sanctities. Nevertheless, it must be obvious to you that, due to the
imbalance of power between our armed forces and the enemy forces, a
suitable means of fighting must be adopted i.e using fast moving light
forces that work under complete secrecy. In other word to initiate a
guerrilla warfare, were the sons of the nation, and not the military
forces, take part in it. And as you know, it is wise, in the present
circumstances, for the armed military forces not to be engaged in a
conventional fighting with the forces of the crusader enemy (the
exceptions are the bold and the forceful operations carried out by the
members of the armed forces individually, that is without the movement
of the formal forces in its conventional shape and hence the responses
will not be directed, strongly, against the army) unless a big
advantage is likely to be achieved; and great losses induced on the
enemy side (that would shaken and destroy its foundations and
infrastructures) that will help to expel the defeated enemy from the
country.

The Mujahideen, your brothers and sons, requesting that you support
them in every possible way by supplying them with the necessary
information, materials and arms. Security men are especially asked to
cover up for the Mujahideen and to assist them as much as possible
against the occupying enemy; and to spread rumours, fear and
discouragement among the members of the enemy forces.

We bring to your attention that the regime, in order to create a
friction and feud between the Mujahideen and yourselves, might resort
to take a deliberate action against personnel of the security, guards
and military forces and blame the Mujahideen for these actions. The
regime should not be allowed to have such opportunity.

The regime is fully responsible for what had been incurred by the
country and the nation; however the occupying American enemy is the
principle and the main cause of the situation . Therefore efforts
should be concentrated on destroying, fighting and killing the enemy
until, by the Grace of Allah, it is completely defeated. The time will
come -by the Permission of Allah- when you'll perform your decisive
role so that the word of Allah will be supreme and the word of the
infidels (Kaferoon) will be the inferior. You will hit with iron fist
against the aggressors. You'll re-establish the normal course and give
the people their rights and carry out your truly Islamic duty. Allah
willing, I'll have a separate talk about these issues.

My Muslim Brothers (particularly those of the Arab Peninsula): The
money you pay to buy American goods will be transformed into bullets
and used against our brothers in Palestine and tomorrow (future)
against our sons in the land of the two Holy places. By buying these
goods we are strengthening their economy while our dispossession and
poverty increases.

Muslims Brothers of land of the two Holy Places:

It is incredible that our country is the world largest buyer of arms
from the USA and the area biggest commercial partners of the Americans
who are assisting their Zionist brothers in occupying Palestine and in
evicting and killing the Muslims there, by providing arms, men and
financial supports.

To deny these occupiers from the enormous revenues of their trading
with our country is a very important help for our Jihad against them.
To express our anger and hate to them is a very important moral
gesture. By doing so we would have taken part in (the process of )
cleansing our sanctities from the crusaders and the Zionists and
forcing them, by the Permission of Allah, to leave disappointed and
defeated.

We expect the woman of the land of the two Holy Places and other
countries to carry out their role in boycotting the American goods.

If economical boycotting is intertwined with the military operations
of the Mujahideen, then defeating the enemy will be even nearer, by
the Permission of Allah. However if Muslims don't co-operate and
support their Mujahideen brothers then , in effect, they are supplying
the army of the enemy with financial help and extending the war and
increasing the suffering of the Muslims.

The security and the intelligence services of the entire world can not
force a single citizen to buy the goods of his/her enemy. Economical
boycotting of the American goods is a very effective weapon of hitting
and weakening the enemy, and it is not under the control of the
security forces of the regime.

Before closing my talk, I have a very important message to the youths
of Islam, men of the brilliant future of the Ummah of Muhammad
(ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM). Our talk with the youths
about their duty in this difficult period in the history of our Ummah.
A period in which the youths and no one else came forward to carry out
the variable and different duties. While some of the well known
individuals had hesitated in their duty of defending Islam and saving
themselves and their wealth from the injustice, aggression and terror
-exercised by the government- the youths (may Allah protect them) were
forthcoming and raised the banner of Jihad against the
American-Zionist alliance occupying the sanctities of Islam. Others
who have been tricked into loving this materialistic world, and those
who have been terrorised by the government choose to give legitimacy
to the greatest betrayal , the occupation of the land of the two Holy
Places (We bemoan this and can only say: "No power and power acquiring
except through Allah"). We are not surprised from the action of our
youths. The youths were the companions of Muhammad (Allah's Blessings
and Salutations may be on him), and was it not the youths themselves
who killed Aba-Jahl, the Pharaoh of this Ummah?. Our youths are the
best descendent of the best ancestors.

Abdul-Rahman Ibn Awf -may Allah be pleased with him- said: (I was at
Badr where I noticed two youths one to my right and the other to my
left. One of them asked me quietly (so not to be heard by the other) :
O uncle point out Aba-Jahl to me. What do you want him for? , said
Abdul Rahman. The boy answered: I have been informed that he-
Aba-Jahl- abused the Messenger of Allah (), I swear by Allah, who have
my soul in His hand, that if I see Aba-Jahl I'll not let my shadow
departs his shadow till one of us is dead. I was astonished, said
Abdul Rahman; then the other youth said the same thing as the first
one. Subsequently I saw Aba-Jahl among the people; I said to the boys
do you see? this is the man you are asking me about. The two youths
hit Aba-Jahl with their swords till he was dead. Allah is the
greatest, Praise be to Him: Two youths of young age but with great
perseverance, enthusiasm, courage and pride for the religion of
Allah's, each one of them asking about the most important act of
killing that should be induced on the enemy. That is the killing of
the pharaoh of this Ummah - Aba Jahl-, the leader of the unbelievers
(Mushrikeen) at the battle of Badr. The role of Abdul Rahman Ibn Awf ,
may Allah be pleased with him, was to direct the two youths toward
Aba-Jahl. That was the perseverance and the enthusiasm of the youths
of that time and that was the perseverance and the enthusiasm of their
fathers. It is this role that is now required from the people who have
the expertise and knowledge in fighting the enemy. They should guide
their brothers and sons in this matter; once that has been done, then
our youths will repeat what their forefathers had said before: "I
swear by Allah if I see him I'll not let my shadow to departs from his
shadow till one of us is dead".

And the story of Abdur-Rahman Ibn Awf about Ummayyah Ibn Khalaf shows
the extent of Bilal's (may Allah be pleased with him) persistence in
killing the head of the Kufr: "the head of Kufr is Ummayyah Ibn
Khalaf.... I shall live not if he survives" said Bilal.

Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary
of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at Riyadh and
Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when
attacked by coward terrorists".

We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving
mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all.
Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut
took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits
and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And
where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave
Aden in lees than twenty four hours!

But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous
propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership
of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international
force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia.
However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and
one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left
the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead
with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and
promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for
withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the
extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a
pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests"
of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities
of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu.

I say to Secretary of Defence: The sons of the land of the two Holy
Places had come out to fight against the Russian in Afghanistan, the
Serb in Bosnia-Herzegovina and today they are fighting in Chechenia
and -by the Permission of Allah- they have been made victorious over
your partner, the Russians. By the command of Allah, they are also
fighting in Tajakistan.

I say: Since the sons of the land of the two Holy Places feel and
strongly believe that fighting (Jihad) against the Kuffar in every
part of the world, is absolutely essential; then they would be even
more enthusiastic, more powerful and larger in number upon fighting on
their own land- the place of their births- defending the greatest of
their sanctities, the noble Ka'ba (the Qiblah of all Muslims). They
know that the Muslims of the world will assist and help them to
victory. To liberate their sanctities is the greatest of issues
concerning all Muslims; It is the duty of every Muslims in this world.

I say to you William (Defence Secretary) that: These youths love death
as you loves life. They inherit dignity, pride, courage, generosity,
truthfulness and sacrifice from father to father. They are most
delivering and steadfast at war. They inherit these values from their
ancestors (even from the time of the Jaheliyyah, before Islam). These
values were approved and completed by the arriving Islam as stated by
the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on
him): "I have been send to perfecting the good values". (Saheeh
Al-Jame' As-Sagheer).

When the pagan King Amroo Ibn Hind tried to humiliate the pagan Amroo
Ibn Kulthoom, the latter cut the head of the King with his sword
rejecting aggression, humiliation and indignation.

If the king oppresses the people excessively, we reject submitting to
humiliation.

By which legitimacy (or command) O Amroo bin Hind you want us to be
degraded?!

By which legitimacy (or command) O Amroo bin Hind you listen to our
foes and disrespect us?!

Our toughness has, O Amroo, tired the enemies before you, never giving
in!

Our youths believe in paradise after death. They believe that taking
part in fighting will not bring their day nearer; and staying behind
will not postpone their day either. Exalted be to Allah who said: {And
a soul will not die but with the permission of Allah, the term is
fixed} (Aal Imraan; 3:145). Our youths believe in the saying of the
messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him):
"O boy, I teach a few words; guard (guard the cause of, keep the
commandments of) Allah, then He guards you, guard (the cause of )
Allah, then He will be with you; if you ask (for your need) ask Allah,
if you seek assistance, seek Allah's; and know definitely that if the
Whole World gathered to (bestow) profit on you they will not profit
you except with what was determined for you by Allah, and if they
gathered to harm you they will not harm you except with what has been
determined for you by Allah; Pen lifted, papers dried, it is fixed
nothing in these truths can be changed" Saheeh Al-Jame' As-Sagheer.
Our youths took note of the meaning of the poetic verse:

"If death is a predetermined must, then it is a shame to die
cowardly." and the other poet saying:

"Who do not die by the sword will die by other reason; many causes are
there but one death".

These youths believe in what has been told by Allah and His messenger
(Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) about the greatness
of the reward for the Mujahideen and Martyrs; Allah, the most exalted
said: {and -so far- those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will
by no means allow their deeds to perish. He will guide them and
improve their condition. and cause them to enter the garden -paradise-
which He has made known to them}. (Muhammad; 47:4-6). Allah the
Exalted also said: {and do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's
way as dead; nay -they are- alive, but you do not perceive} (Bagarah;
2:154). His messenger (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on
him) said: "for those who strive in His cause Allah prepared hundred
degrees (levels) in paradise; in-between two degrees as the in-between
heaven and earth". Saheeh Al-Jame' As-Sagheer. He (Allah's Blessings
and Salutations may be on him) also said: "the best of the martyrs are
those who do NOT turn their faces away from the battle till they are
killed. They are in the high level of Jannah (paradise). Their Lord
laughs to them ( in pleasure) and when your Lord laughs to a slave of
His, He will not hold him to an account". narrated by Ahmad with
correct and trustworthy reference. And : "a martyr will not feel the
pain of death except like how you feel when you are pinched". Saheeh
Al-Jame' As-Sagheer. He also said: "a martyr privileges are guaranteed
by Allah; forgiveness with the first gush of his blood, he will be
shown his seat in paradise, he will be decorated with the jewels of
belief (Imaan), married off to the beautiful ones, protected from the
test in the grave, assured security in the day of judgement, crowned
with the crown of dignity, a ruby of which is better than this whole
world (Duniah) and its' entire content, wedded to seventy two of the
pure Houries (beautiful ones of Paradise) and his intercession on the
behalf of seventy of his relatives will be accepted". Narrated by
Ahmad and At-Tirmithi (with the correct and trustworthy reference).

Those youths know that their rewards in fighting you, the USA, is
double than their rewards in fighting some one else not from the
people of the book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by
killing you. An infidel, and enemy of God like you, cannot be in the
same hell with his righteous executioner.

Our youths chanting and reciting the word of Allah, the most exalted:
{fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to
disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the heart of a
believing people} (At-Taubah; 9:14) and the words of the prophet
(ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM): "I swear by Him, who has my
soul in His hand, that no man get killed fighting them today,
patiently attacking and not retreating ,surely Allah will let him into
paradise". And his (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him)
saying to them: "get up to a paradise as wide as heaven and earth".

The youths also reciting the All Mighty words of: "so when you meat in
battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks..." (Muhammad;
47:19). Those youths will not ask you (William Perry) for
explanations, they will tell you singing there is nothing between us
need to be explained, there is only killing and neck smiting.

And they will say to you what their grand father, Haroon Ar-Rasheed,
Ameer-ul-Mu'meneen, replied to your grandfather, Nagfoor, the
Byzantine emperor, when he threatened the Muslims: "from Haroon
Ar-Rasheed, Ameer-ul-Mu'meneen, to Nagfoor, the dog of the Romans; the
answer is what you will see not what you hear". Haroon El-Rasheed led
the armies of Islam to the battle and handed Nagfoor a devastating
defeat.

The youths you called cowards are competing among themselves for
fighting and killing you. reciting what one of them said: The crusader
army became dust when we detonated al-Khobar. With courageous youth of
Islam fearing no danger. If (they are) threatened: The tyrants will
kill you, they reply my death is a victory. I did not betray that
king, he did betray our Qiblah. And he permitted in the holy country
the most filthy sort of humans. I have made an oath by Allah, the
Great, to fight who ever rejected the faith. For more than a decade,
they carried arms on their shoulders in Afghanistan and they have made
vows to Allah that as long as they are alive, they will continue to
carry arms against you until you are -Allah willing- expelled,
defeated and humiliated, they will carry on as long as they live
saying: O William, tomorrow you will know which young man is
confronting your misguided brethren! A youth fighting in smile,
returning with the spear coloured red. May Allah keep me close to
knights, humans in peace, demons in war. Lions in Jungle but their
teeth are spears and Indian swords. The horses witness that I push
them hard forwarded in the fire of battle. The dust of the battle
bears witnesses for me, so also the fighting itself, the pens and the
books!

So to abuse the grandsons of the companions, may Allah be pleased with
them, by calling them cowards and challenging them by refusing to
leave the land of the two Holy Places shows the insanity and the
imbalance you are suffering from. Its appropriate "remedy," however,
is in the hands of the youths of Islam, as the poet said:

I am willing to sacrifice self and wealth for knights who never
disappointed me.

Knights who are never fed up or deterred by death, even if the mill of
war turns.

In the heat of battle they do not care, and cure the insanity of the
enemy by their 'insane' courage.

Terrorising you, while you are carrying arms on our land, is a
legitimate and morally demanded duty. It is a legitimate right well
known to all humans and other creatures. Your example and our example
is like a snake which entered into a house of a man and got killed by
him. The coward is the one who lets you walk, while carrying arms,
freely on his land and provides you with peace and security.

Those youths are different from your soldiers. Your problem will be
how to convince your troops to fight, while our problem will be how to
restrain our youths to wait for their turn in fighting and in
operations. These youths are commendation and praiseworthy.

They stood up tall to defend the religion; at the time when the
government misled the prominent scholars and tricked them into issuing
Fatwas (that have no basis neither in the book of Allah, nor in the
Sunnah of His prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on
him)) of opening the land of the two Holy Places for the Christians
armies and handing the Al-Aqsa Mosque to the Zionists. Twisting the
meanings of the holy text will not change this fact at all. They
deserve the praise of the poet: I rejected all the critics, who chose
the wrong way; I rejected those who enjoy fireplaces in clubs
discussing eternally; I rejected those, who inspite being lost, think
they are at the goal; I respect those who carried on not asking or
bothering about the difficulties; Never letting up from their goals,
inspite all hardships of the road; Whose blood is the oil for the
flame guiding in the darkness of confusion; I feel still the pain of
(the loss) Al-Quds in my internal organs; That loss is like a burning
fire in my intestines; I did not betray my covenant with God, when
even states did betray it! As their grandfather Assim Bin Thabit said
rejecting a surrender offer of the pagans: What for an excuse I had to
surrender, while I am still able, having arrows and my bow having a
tough string?! Death is truth and ultimate destiny, and life will end
any way. If I do not fight you, then my mother must be insane!

The youths hold you responsible for all of the killings and evictions
of the Muslims and the violation of the sanctities, carried out by
your Zionist brothers in Lebanon; you openly supplied them with arms
and finance. More than 600,000 Iraqi children have died due to lack of
food and medicine and as a result of the unjustifiable aggression
(sanction) imposed on Iraq and its nation. The children of Iraq are
our children. You, the USA, together with the Saudi regime are
responsible for the shedding of the blood of these innocent children.
Due to all of that, what ever treaty you have with our country is now
null and void.

The treaty of Hudaybiyyah was cancelled by the messenger of Allah
(Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) once Quraysh had
assisted Bani Bakr against Khusa'ah, the allies of the prophet
(Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him). The prophet
(Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) fought Quraysh and
concurred Makka. He (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him)
considered the treaty with Bani Qainuqa' void because one of their
Jews publicly hurt one Muslim woman, one single woman, at the market.
Let alone then, the killing you caused to hundred of thousands Muslims
and occupying their sanctities. It is now clear that those who claim
that the blood of the American solders (the enemy occupying the land
of the Muslims) should be protected are merely repeating what is
imposed on them by the regime; fearing the aggression and interested
in saving themselves. It is a duty now on every tribe in the Arab
Peninsula to fight, Jihad, in the cause of Allah and to cleanse the
land from those occupiers. Allah knows that there blood is permitted
(to be spilled) and their wealth is a booty; their wealth is a booty
to those who kill them. The most Exalted said in the verse of
As-Sayef, The Sword: "so when the sacred months have passed away, then
slay the idolaters where ever you find them, and take them captives
and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush" (At-Tauba;
9:5). Our youths knew that

---

"Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:kL5af.73066$Fe7.247985@news000.worldonline.dk...

> 'Tryghed' er desværre blevet den helt store salgsvare for mange politikere
i
> Vesten. For det forudsætter at de spiller på folks frygt, og dette finder
> jeg forkasteligt.
>
> Mvh
> Zeki

Det kedelige er, at kontrol altid, og i særdeleshed, har været hvad
politikere ønsker.
For at cementere deres magt.
Og nu udnytter de, for gud ved hvilken gang, situationen til at skaffe sig
mere kontrol/magt.
Under dække af "tryghed".

MVH
Egon

---

"Egon Stich" <stich-foto@stich-foto.dk> wrote in message
news:hpnaf.44$b86.10@news.get2net.dk...
>
> "Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:kL5af.73066$Fe7.247985@news000.worldonline.dk...
>
>> 'Tryghed' er desværre blevet den helt store salgsvare for mange
>> politikere
> i
>> Vesten. For det forudsætter at de spiller på folks frygt, og dette finder
>> jeg forkasteligt.
>>
>> Mvh
>> Zeki
>
> Det kedelige er, at kontrol altid, og i særdeleshed, har været hvad
> politikere ønsker.
> For at cementere deres magt.
> Og nu udnytter de, for gud ved hvilken gang, situationen til at skaffe sig
> mere kontrol/magt.
> Under dække af "tryghed".

Og det har de gjort siden Det Kommunistiske Manifests kom ud, så vi er
allerede nu langt på den anden side af benhård fascisme. Det skulle ikke
undre mig om hele Sprogø og Bornholm er én stor lejr for politiske fanger,
sammen med måske Fuglefjeldet på Nordøen på Færøerne? det er måske derfor vi
betaler dem et par milliarder om året?

Hvis de får mere magt/kontrol, så bliver de noget der ligner 100 gange
Napoleon, - og ingen - uden dig - har lagt mærke til det. Det er rystende.
Måske kommer disse nyhedsgruppe-poster slet ikke frem, man sidder sikkert
bare og ser sin egen computer, politikerne intercepter alt og laver det om
så det passer med deres politik. Rav ruskende rystende! Jeg klager til paven
i Rom og til A.P.Møller, der MÅ være grænser.

---

"Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:436a08ff$0$67262$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk...
>
>
> Og det har de gjort siden Det Kommunistiske Manifests kom ud, så vi er
> allerede nu langt på den anden side af benhård fascisme. Det skulle ikke
> undre mig om hele Sprogø og Bornholm er én stor lejr for politiske fanger,
> sammen med måske Fuglefjeldet på Nordøen på Færøerne? det er måske derfor
vi
> betaler dem et par milliarder om året?
>
> Hvis de får mere magt/kontrol, så bliver de noget der ligner 100 gange
> Napoleon, - og ingen - uden dig - har lagt mærke til det. Det er rystende.
> Måske kommer disse nyhedsgruppe-poster slet ikke frem, man sidder sikkert
> bare og ser sin egen computer, politikerne intercepter alt og laver det om
> så det passer med deres politik. Rav ruskende rystende! Jeg klager til
paven
> i Rom og til A.P.Møller, der MÅ være grænser.
>
>

Tillykke.
1. Præmie.
For den mest misforståede udlægning af virkeligheden i gennem laaaang tid.

Husk Pastor Niemüller.

MVH
Egon

---

In article <43687185$0$67263$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>,
larsen_knud@hotmail.com says...
>
> "Peter K. Nielsen" <nixen@bixen.dk> wrote in message
> news:43686c34$0$1806$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> >
> > "Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in message
> > news:7_V9f.73006$Fe7.247862@news000.worldonline.dk...
> >> ...for regeringen:
> >>
> >> "En ny terrorplan lægger op til mere overvågning og flere beføjelser til
> >> efterretningstjenesterne"
> >> http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=405697
> >>
> >> Naturligvis skal dette hastes igennem inden der falder dom over dem som
> >> just er blevet fængslet fordi de angiveligt har medvirket til at
> >> planlægge terror i Bosnien.
> >
> > jada - Nøjagtigt ligesom man vil kende resultatet af en afstmening om
> > indførelse af dødsstraf, hvis man holder den umiidelbart efter at en 8
> > årig pige er blevet voldtaget og dræbt.
> >
> > Denne regering er mesteren i at manipulere
>
> Uanset om "der falder dom", så er realiteterne mht de unge menneskers
> medvirken til terrorplanlægning vel de samme? Og det er et faktum at mange
> unge muslimer radikaliseres mere og mere, som der var artikler om i går i
> medierne?


Ærgerligt der er religionsfrihed i danmark, nu gik det lige så godt med
at få det udryddet.

---

Zeki wrote:

> End dengang i 70'erne hvor PLO, PLFA, IRA, Bader Meinhoof, ETA og, RAF
> huserede?

Bader Meinhof, ETA og RAF brugte ikke selvmordsbombemænd, og PLO og
PLFA var vist endnu ikke begyndt på det dengang.

Var Bader Meinhof ikke det samme som RAF? Og hvorfor overspringer du
The Red Brigades in Italy? Var de det samme som RAF?

Bent

---

"Trans" <kongaead@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1130963241.912616.59350@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Zeki wrote:

> End dengang i 70'erne hvor PLO, PLFA, IRA, Bader Meinhoof, ETA og, RAF
> huserede?

Bader Meinhof, ETA og RAF brugte ikke selvmordsbombemænd, og PLO og
PLFA var vist endnu ikke begyndt på det dengang.

Bomben i 1985 i København var svjh fra PLO?


Var Bader Meinhof ikke det samme som RAF? Og hvorfor overspringer du
The Red Brigades in Italy? Var de det samme som RAF?

Jo, men Zeki behøver jo ikke nævne alle grupperne for at vise sin pointe, -
som jo altså ikke holder.

---

"Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:43692f6c$0$78280$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...
> Jo, men Zeki behøver jo ikke nævne alle grupperne for at vise sin
> pointe, - som jo altså ikke holder.

At der er mindre terrorisme i dette årti sammenlignet med 70'erne?

Hvad er det da at du mener med at tingene "mildest talt ser anderledes ud i
dag"?

Skal vi da være mere bange synes du? Og for hvad? At sætte os op i et fly?
At gå på gaden?

Og er dette fordi vi deltager i koalitionen i Irak?

Det eneste vi behøver at frygte er den stigende modvillighed mod dialog. For
det var f.eks dialogen der opløste PLO og gjorde at IRA ophørte med deres
aktioner.

Uden dialog bliver en konflikt mellem to stridende parter sjældent løst.

Mvh
Zeki

---

"Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in message
news:vOdaf.73118$Fe7.248413@news000.worldonline.dk...
> "Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:43692f6c$0$78280$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...
>> Jo, men Zeki behøver jo ikke nævne alle grupperne for at vise sin
>> pointe, - som jo altså ikke holder.
>
> At der er mindre terrorisme i dette årti sammenlignet med 70'erne?
>
> Hvad er det da at du mener med at tingene "mildest talt ser anderledes ud
> i dag"?

I dag er hundreder af millioner af muslimer blevet anti-vestlige, og en del
af dem har erklæret krig imod os. I 70erne havde de fleste grupper et
specifikt politisk mål, - de nuværende terrorister kan bedst sammenlignes
med RAF, som ville destabilisere hele samfundet, MEN, selv de, gik jo
hovedsagelig efter mennesker de anså for "skyldige" - arbejdsgiverformand,
politi osv. De nuværende terrorrister tænker, som populære "lærde" muslimer
gør i forhold til Israel, *alle* borgere anses som "soldater", og man har
ret til at dræbe dem. RAF i Tyskland og Italien havde dog ikke erklæret alle
landenes borgere for "fair game", selv om de havde denne forfærdelige
"falske bevidsthed".
Også dengang var de venstreorienterede imod terroren, MEN, som de sagde, der
var jo gode grunde til den, what else is new?

>
> Skal vi da være mere bange synes du? Og for hvad? At sætte os op i et fly?
> At gå på gaden?
>
> Og er dette fordi vi deltager i koalitionen i Irak?
>
> Det eneste vi behøver at frygte er den stigende modvillighed mod dialog.
> For det var f.eks dialogen der opløste PLO og gjorde at IRA ophørte med
> deres aktioner.
>
> Uden dialog bliver en konflikt mellem to stridende parter sjældent løst.


Man kan ikke diskutere med folk som VED, at de har den eneste sande religion
og ejer sandheden om Gud og universet, man kan kun overgive sig. Og det
gælder også her i DK, som jeg så en troende muslim fortælle i går, man kan
hygge sig med de "rabiate", men hvis man kommer med så meget som een
modsigelse, så er det bare "farvel" og tak. Den slags troede har jo pr
definition ingen brug for "dialog", og de undgår den altid og på alle måder.

PLO og IRA havde som bekendt helt bestemte mål, som man kunne lave
kompromisser om, bin Ladens må kan man ikke lave kompromisser om, medmindre
du synes vi skal aflevere det halve Spanien, og frivilligt konvertere til
islam?

Vi kan jo heller ikke så godt "aflevere" den modernitet, som salafisterne
hader og vil bekæmpe, men vi kan selvfølgelig, som første skridt, love at vi
aldrig vil forlange kvinders rettigheder respekteret, - det ville være noget
de kunne respektere.

---

"Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:4369c452$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...

> I dag er hundreder af millioner af muslimer blevet anti-vestlige

Det er en påstand grebet ud af luften. Hvis du nu havde skrevet "anti-USA"
kunne jeg måske være delvist enig.

> og en del af dem har erklæret krig imod os.

Hvad er "en del" af de hundrede millioner? En million? 6799? 100? Otte?

> De nuværende terrorrister tænker, som populære "lærde" muslimer

Så du mener at vide hvordan terrorister tænker? Og at en tjetjensk terrorist
tænker det samme som en saudi-arabisk terrorist som tænker det samme som en
afghansk terrorist? Er du ikke bare en anelse dømmende og generaliserende
her?

> Også dengang var de venstreorienterede imod terroren, MEN, som de sagde,
> der var jo gode grunde til den, what else is new?

Naturligvis er der en grund til at man f.eks slår sig selv ihjel i en
selvmordsaktion eller begår terror. Der er ALTID en grund og for dem - altså
terroristerne - er grunden ALTID "god". Og tænk dig - jeg er ikke engang
venstreorienteret.

>> Det eneste vi behøver at frygte er den stigende modvillighed mod dialog.
>> For det var f.eks dialogen der opløste PLO og gjorde at IRA ophørte med
>> deres aktioner.

>> Uden dialog bliver en konflikt mellem to stridende parter sjældent løst.

> Man kan ikke diskutere med folk som VED, at de har den eneste sande
> religion og ejer sandheden om Gud og universet, man kan kun overgive sig.

Jeg påstår ikke at alle er interesserede i dialog. Hverken Bush eller Osama
har nok særligt meget lyst til at sætte sig ved samme bord og "tale om
tingene." Til gengæld synes jeg det er farligt hvis man i forvejen siger "we
never negotiate with terrorists" for her afskærer man sig fra en dialog som
kan løse konflikten og vil ikke lytte. Det var som sagt først da englænderne
begyndte at lytte til IRA for 5-6 år siden at deres bombninger i London
ophørte.

Mvh
Zeki

---

"Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in message
news:Uuqaf.73169$Fe7.248714@news000.worldonline.dk...
> "Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:4369c452$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...
>
>> I dag er hundreder af millioner af muslimer blevet anti-vestlige
>
> Det er en påstand grebet ud af luften. Hvis du nu havde skrevet "anti-USA"
> kunne jeg måske være delvist enig.
>
>> og en del af dem har erklæret krig imod os.
>
> Hvad er "en del" af de hundrede millioner? En million? 6799? 100? Otte?

Vi har nogle glimrende internationale undersøgelser, læs dem. Selv i et
moderat land som Indonesien mener 16% af muslimerne at det var godt at man
bombede de vantro på Bali, - undersøgelse FRA Indonesien. Og de ER mange
millioner.


>
>> De nuværende terrorrister tænker, som populære "lærde" muslimer
>
> Så du mener at vide hvordan terrorister tænker? Og at en tjetjensk
> terrorist tænker det samme som en saudi-arabisk terrorist som tænker det
> samme som en afghansk terrorist? Er du ikke bare en anelse dømmende og
> generaliserende her?>

Naturligvis ved jeg det, som minimum tænker man at det er OK at dræbe civile
samtidig med sig selv, ellers ville man jo overhovedet ikke være
selvmordsterrorist. Dømmende?



>> Også dengang var de venstreorienterede imod terroren, MEN, som de sagde,
>> der var jo gode grunde til den, what else is new?
>
> Naturligvis er der en grund til at man f.eks slår sig selv ihjel i en
> selvmordsaktion eller begår terror. Der er ALTID en grund og for dem -
> altså terroristerne - er grunden ALTID "god". Og tænk dig - jeg er ikke
> engang venstreorienteret.

For *dem* er grunden altid "god", men den behøver jo - for at sige det
mildt - ikke være det for dig.
Altså, hvis man/du mener, at det er helt fint at bombe "Superbrugsen", fordi
vi er forfærdelig materielle og ureligiøse, så synes jeg mærkelig nok, at
det er at gå langt over fornuftens grænse.

> `
>>> Det eneste vi behøver at frygte er den stigende modvillighed mod dialog.
>>> For det var f.eks dialogen der opløste PLO og gjorde at IRA ophørte med
>>> deres aktioner.
>
>>> Uden dialog bliver en konflikt mellem to stridende parter sjældent løst.
>
>> Man kan ikke diskutere med folk som VED, at de har den eneste sande
>> religion og ejer sandheden om Gud og universet, man kan kun overgive sig.
>
> Jeg påstår ikke at alle er interesserede i dialog. Hverken Bush eller
> Osama har nok særligt meget lyst til at sætte sig ved samme bord og "tale
> om tingene." Til gengæld synes jeg det er farligt hvis man i forvejen
> siger "we never negotiate with terrorists" for her afskærer man sig fra en
> dialog som kan løse konflikten og vil ikke lytte. Det var som sagt først
> da englænderne begyndte at lytte til IRA for 5-6 år siden at deres
> bombninger i London ophørte.

Alle der VIL diskutere noget som helst, skal man selvfølgelig diskutere med,
men folk som bare VED, at de sidder med sandheden, kan man jo ikke rokke
ved.

En Bush er jo trods alt ikke en troende på niveau med en bin Laden, eller
andre fromme muslimer. Han siges at være kraft-troende og helt beroende på
de evangeliske kristne, men hans kone fortæller at han på farmen var i gang
med at malke en hingst, og at hun og veninderne naturligvis går på
mande-strip-klub fordi Bush og de andre pinger falder i søvn kl 21.
Kan du måske se en lille bitte forskel fra ham og folk af bin Ladens type, -
nå ikke.

---

"Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:436a65a0$0$67262$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk...

>> og en del af dem har erklæret krig imod os.

>> Hvad er "en del" af de hundrede millioner? En million? 6799? 100? Otte?

> Vi har nogle glimrende internationale undersøgelser, læs dem. Selv i et
> moderat land som Indonesien mener 16% af muslimerne at det var godt at man
> bombede de vantro på Bali, - undersøgelse FRA Indonesien. Og de ER mange
> millioner.

Så hvis man er "anti-vestlig" erklærer man samtidig Vesten krig? Det var da
en sort/hvid tankegang du har. Man har da lov til at have holdninger og
sympatier/antipatier uden nødvendigvis at shoppe efter selvmordsbælter.

>> Så du mener at vide hvordan terrorister tænker? Og at en tjetjensk
>> terrorist tænker det samme som en saudi-arabisk terrorist som tænker det
>> samme som en afghansk terrorist? Er du ikke bare en anelse dømmende og
>> generaliserende her?>

> Naturligvis ved jeg det, som minimum tænker man at det er OK at dræbe
> civile samtidig med sig selv, ellers ville man jo overhovedet ikke være
> selvmordsterrorist. Dømmende?

Men nu er det bare sådan at ikke alle terrorister er selvmordsterrorister.
Mange har forskellige mål, forskellige ideologier, forskellige baggrunde.

>> Naturligvis er der en grund til at man f.eks slår sig selv ihjel i en
>> selvmordsaktion eller begår terror. Der er ALTID en grund og for dem -
>> altså terroristerne - er grunden ALTID "god". Og tænk dig - jeg er ikke
>> engang venstreorienteret.

> For *dem* er grunden altid "god", men den behøver jo - for at sige det
> mildt - ikke være det for dig.
> Altså, hvis man/du mener, at det er helt fint at bombe "Superbrugsen",
> fordi vi er forfærdelig materielle og ureligiøse, så synes jeg mærkelig
> nok, at det er at gå langt over fornuftens grænse.

LOL!

>>>> Uden dialog bliver en konflikt mellem to stridende parter sjældent
>>>> løst.

>>> Man kan ikke diskutere med folk som VED, at de har den eneste sande
>>> religion og ejer sandheden om Gud og universet, man kan kun overgive
>>> sig.

Ja, det er jeg så enig i. Mener du de unge som er anholdt hører ind under
denne kategori?

> En Bush er jo trods alt ikke en troende på niveau med en bin Laden, eller
> andre fromme muslimer.

Heller ikke da han stod med Biblen i hånden til en tale og sagde "this is
our law?"

> Han siges at være kraft-troende og helt beroende på de evangeliske
> kristne, men hans kone fortæller at han på farmen var i gang med at malke
> en hingst, og at hun og veninderne naturligvis går på mande-strip-klub
> fordi Bush og de andre pinger falder i søvn kl 21.

Fik du den fra National Enquirer?

mvh
Zeki

---

"Zeki" <zeki@[fjerndette]image.dk> wrote in message
news:mHuaf.73204$Fe7.250077@news000.worldonline.dk...
> "Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:436a65a0$0$67262$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk...
>
>>> og en del af dem har erklæret krig imod os.
>
>>> Hvad er "en del" af de hundrede millioner? En million? 6799? 100? Otte?
>
>> Vi har nogle glimrende internationale undersøgelser, læs dem. Selv i et
>> moderat land som Indonesien mener 16% af muslimerne at det var godt at
>> man bombede de vantro på Bali, - undersøgelse FRA Indonesien. Og de ER
>> mange millioner.
>
> Så hvis man er "anti-vestlig" erklærer man samtidig Vesten krig? Det var
> da en sort/hvid tankegang du har. Man har da lov til at have holdninger og
> sympatier/antipatier uden nødvendigvis at shoppe efter selvmordsbælter.

Det er ikke mig der er sort/hvid, det er dem der mener det er OK at dræbe
vantro, og det var altså 16% af de udspurgte.


>
>>> Så du mener at vide hvordan terrorister tænker? Og at en tjetjensk
>>> terrorist tænker det samme som en saudi-arabisk terrorist som tænker det
>>> samme som en afghansk terrorist? Er du ikke bare en anelse dømmende og
>>> generaliserende her?>
>
>> Naturligvis ved jeg det, som minimum tænker man at det er OK at dræbe
>> civile samtidig med sig selv, ellers ville man jo overhovedet ikke være
>> selvmordsterrorist. Dømmende?
>
> Men nu er det bare sådan at ikke alle terrorister er selvmordsterrorister.
> Mange har forskellige mål, forskellige ideologier, forskellige baggrunde.

Dem der tænker på at bombe danske eller engelske tog-stationer er af samme
art ,at der også findes andre typer, hjælper vel ikke os ret meget?


>
>>> Naturligvis er der en grund til at man f.eks slår sig selv ihjel i en
>>> selvmordsaktion eller begår terror. Der er ALTID en grund og for dem -
>>> altså terroristerne - er grunden ALTID "god". Og tænk dig - jeg er ikke
>>> engang venstreorienteret.
>
>> For *dem* er grunden altid "god", men den behøver jo - for at sige det
>> mildt - ikke være det for dig.
>> Altså, hvis man/du mener, at det er helt fint at bombe "Superbrugsen",
>> fordi vi er forfærdelig materielle og ureligiøse, så synes jeg mærkelig
>> nok, at det er at gå langt over fornuftens grænse.
>
> LOL!
>
>>>>> Uden dialog bliver en konflikt mellem to stridende parter sjældent
>>>>> løst.
>
>>>> Man kan ikke diskutere med folk som VED, at de har den eneste sande
>>>> religion og ejer sandheden om Gud og universet, man kan kun overgive
>>>> sig.
>
> Ja, det er jeg så enig i. Mener du de unge som er anholdt hører ind under
> denne kategori?

Aner det ikke, men hvis de bare VED at vantro skal bombes også i fx
København, så er det nok ikke meget at debattere om?


>
>> En Bush er jo trods alt ikke en troende på niveau med en bin Laden, eller
>> andre fromme muslimer.
>
> Heller ikke da han stod med Biblen i hånden til en tale og sagde "this is
> our law?"
>
>> Han siges at være kraft-troende og helt beroende på de evangeliske
>> kristne, men hans kone fortæller at han på farmen var i gang med at malke
>> en hingst, og at hun og veninderne naturligvis går på mande-strip-klub
>> fordi Bush og de andre pinger falder i søvn kl 21.
>
> Fik du den fra National Enquirer?

? Jeg fik den fra TV direkte fra salen, insinuerer du at det er noget man
har fundet på?

Hvor har du set Bush med "this is our law"? Klart at manden er religiøs,
som 90% af amerikanerne, men derfor behøver han jo ikke være total idiot.

---

On 2 Nov 2005 12:27:21 -0800, "Trans" <kongaead@my-deja.com> wrote:

>Zeki wrote:
>
>> End dengang i 70'erne hvor PLO, PLFA, IRA, Bader Meinhoof, ETA og, RAF
>> huserede?
>
>Bader Meinhof, ETA og RAF brugte ikke selvmordsbombemænd, og PLO og
>PLFA var vist endnu ikke begyndt på det dengang.
>
>Var Bader Meinhof ikke det samme som RAF? Og hvorfor overspringer du
>The Red Brigades in Italy? Var de det samme som RAF?
>
Bader Meinhoff er kun navne på frontfigurerne i RAF. De hed Andreas
Baader og Ulrike Meinhof og det menes at Joschka Fischer
fraterniserede med gruppen i sine unge dage.

Regards Croc®

---

"Trans" <kongaead@my-deja.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1130963241.912616.59350@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Zeki wrote:

> End dengang i 70'erne hvor PLO, PLFA, IRA, Bader Meinhoof, ETA og, RAF
> huserede?

Bader Meinhof, ETA og RAF brugte ikke selvmordsbombemænd, og PLO og
PLFA var vist endnu ikke begyndt på det dengang.

Var Bader Meinhof ikke det samme som RAF? Og hvorfor overspringer du
The Red Brigades in Italy? Var de det samme som RAF?

Bent



Og en anden forskel, uden i øvrigt at ville forsvare disse mennesker:
De gik jo mest efter de mennesker, de fandt var "ansvarlige".
Og på een eller anden måde, er dette "mere reelt", hvis man overhovedet kan
sige således.

MVH
Egon

---

In article <7_V9f.73006$Fe7.247862@news000.worldonline.dk>, zeki@
[fjerndette]image.dk says...
> ...for regeringen:
>
> "En ny terrorplan lægger op til mere overvågning og flere beføjelser til
> efterretningstjenesterne"
> http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=405697

Først skaber de et samfund som fremmer terrorisme, og så bruger de det
som undskylnding for at indføre en politistat. Skrækkelig verden.